Not at all. Tesla has designed the car for street use, and the cooling is more than adequate for that purpose. I was using power many times that of sustained street use.
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Model S on the Track - A Review
- Thread starter Doug_G
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
Not at all. Tesla has designed the car for street use, and the cooling is more than adequate for that purpose. I was using power many times that of sustained street use.
I beat a brand new M3 in autocross yesterday by 1 second.
\videos are in my story thread (in my sig)
might not be the best track car of all, but for a huge Sport Utility Sedan it Kicks ass!.
\videos are in my story thread (in my sig)
might not be the best track car of all, but for a huge Sport Utility Sedan it Kicks ass!.
Just for completeness, how would you rate the driver skills compared to each other? Be honest (humble but mean if necessary).
In autocross, driver skill is extremely important. So it is hard to compare performance in this fashion.
That said, I suspect the Model S would be a pretty good autocross car, in that it has very well balanced handling. Perhaps better than the Roadster, except of course for the fact that it is quite large. Certainly you won't have to worry much about drive train heating.
That said, I suspect the Model S would be a pretty good autocross car, in that it has very well balanced handling. Perhaps better than the Roadster, except of course for the fact that it is quite large. Certainly you won't have to worry much about drive train heating.
Also a lot of weight to throw around.
Are you referring to the acceleration limiter? I experienced it for the last 2-3 rounds of my 50 lap day, but that was when I was getting down to sub 15 rated range though so you might be right that it was purely a low-SOC issue.
Yes, but from my experience reported at the top of this thread, it's actually quite nimble despite the weight. I think for autocross the size might be a disadvantage, as you've got to squeeze a bigger car through the gates. In today's autocross the stop box would have been a bit tricky.
Yes. I'm sure that was low-SOC. I believe even a rather long autocross course would be too short to encounter the thermal limits.
Totally agree. Tesla's done a great job with the vehicle. My point is simply that when you're competing with tiny, light vehicles that physics is against you.
I was going to post this earlier, but the power went out. Thunderstorms.
You can see in the last few seconds of the video how narrow and curvy the stop box is - they really wanted to slow the cars down going into the paddock. I can't imagine how the Model S would have squeezed through there. There were a couple of Corvettes at the event and I have no idea how they managed it.
(Sorry for the noise... that's our "secondary" location; the last time I ran the Roadster there all the bumps tore the mud flaps off! So I brought "Stinky" instead.)
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I don’t think that the electric motor is the weak link here.
With an air flow optimized liquid cooling system the electric motor should be stable under any conditions. A strictly air cooled configuration like in the Roadster is something completely different.
The Model S problem here is the NCA battery cell. Using 18650cells is the best solution regarding cost and energy density but it does have limitations regarding power demand.
A system with more than 7000 battery cells like in the Model S is obviously a much more difficult cooling environment than a system with 288 individual cells like in the Chevrolet Volt. The Mercedes Benz SLS E Cell has app. 900 cells in 12 modules. The car will easily run one complete lap at Nürburgring in less than 8 min and it has 4 electric engines with more than 700hp.
My guess is that Tesla is using a very strict thermal management system that limits power than temperatures get critical. The limited top speed of 210kph seems to undermine that theory. For that kind of speed you do not need more than 200hp. On a race track you constantly ask for full power.
3 years ago I took the Tesla Roadster over a winding roads and this car was cutting down the power after a few runs. Will be interesting to see what the Model S does.
With an air flow optimized liquid cooling system the electric motor should be stable under any conditions. A strictly air cooled configuration like in the Roadster is something completely different.
The Model S problem here is the NCA battery cell. Using 18650cells is the best solution regarding cost and energy density but it does have limitations regarding power demand.
A system with more than 7000 battery cells like in the Model S is obviously a much more difficult cooling environment than a system with 288 individual cells like in the Chevrolet Volt. The Mercedes Benz SLS E Cell has app. 900 cells in 12 modules. The car will easily run one complete lap at Nürburgring in less than 8 min and it has 4 electric engines with more than 700hp.
My guess is that Tesla is using a very strict thermal management system that limits power than temperatures get critical. The limited top speed of 210kph seems to undermine that theory. For that kind of speed you do not need more than 200hp. On a race track you constantly ask for full power.
3 years ago I took the Tesla Roadster over a winding roads and this car was cutting down the power after a few runs. Will be interesting to see what the Model S does.
But only about 1/4 of each cell touches the coolant jacket at most, where in the Volt, cooling plates are sandwiched around each cell. The Tesla cells do have the benefit of being wrapped in metal which should conduct heat fairly well to the coolant jacket, but still - the rest of the cell is mostly surrounded by air which isn't good at conducting heat. That said - it's still hard to rule out battery pack temperatures completely. I'm sure Tesla knows where the limitation is. It really bugs me that the car can't handle 2 laps on the track without significantly limiting power. I'm not aware of any production vehicle that has the same limitation stock - especially a performance oriented vehicle. The only common issue I've heard of in production vehicles on the track is brake fade, but that's usually easily solved with performance oriented brake pads and fluid.
mnx
2018 M3P
I too had the chance to take my Model S to the track last night. (Toronto Motorsports Park, just outside of Cayuga, Ontario). It is a 3km road course. It was my first time tracking a car.
The Model S is really a tease. There was no charging at the track and I live ~50km from there. I hyper-miled it there, got 18 laps in and then drove home. I got home with 17km rated left. The total was 153km it said it used 65.5kWh (avg for track/trip there and back was 428Wh/km). I started with a full range charge of 425km, but 5km vanished instantly as I pulled out of my driveway. It appears that ~11kWh went missing... I'm guessing they went to cooling.)
I tried to follow Doug's advice with the seatbelt, but I couldn't get it to lock. (On most belts if you pull them all the way out they will lock, I tried 3 or 4 times pulling it all the way out or pulling it quickly out part way. Nothing seemed to work.)
I have aftermarket 19" wheels on my car with the OEM goodyear tires. I found them to be great on the road, but I think they were terrible on the track. I was able to have a lot of fun, but the TC would prevent any power going down coming out of corners, the light would blink until the car was pointed straight. I had them howling a lot, without producing many G's. When they wear out I'm going to try something better, I suspect it will be a night and day difference. Until then I'll have to try lowering pressure a bit (I ran at the stock 45psi).
Like Doug, I was only able to get 1 lap in at full power. I once pulled off after ~4-5 laps and the car was howling like a jet engine. Those cooling fans sure do make a lot of noise, it was the first time I've heard them.
I think I saw my avg. consumption hit 1200Wh/km.
I can't wait to go back.
I went with a friend who has a Shelby GT-500. We swapped cars for a bit and also rode shotgun. I have to say, I think the Model S is a better road car but on the track he had me beat in every aspect with the exception of the ability to hear tire noise and fuel costs.
The Model S is really a tease. There was no charging at the track and I live ~50km from there. I hyper-miled it there, got 18 laps in and then drove home. I got home with 17km rated left. The total was 153km it said it used 65.5kWh (avg for track/trip there and back was 428Wh/km). I started with a full range charge of 425km, but 5km vanished instantly as I pulled out of my driveway. It appears that ~11kWh went missing... I'm guessing they went to cooling.)
I tried to follow Doug's advice with the seatbelt, but I couldn't get it to lock. (On most belts if you pull them all the way out they will lock, I tried 3 or 4 times pulling it all the way out or pulling it quickly out part way. Nothing seemed to work.)
I have aftermarket 19" wheels on my car with the OEM goodyear tires. I found them to be great on the road, but I think they were terrible on the track. I was able to have a lot of fun, but the TC would prevent any power going down coming out of corners, the light would blink until the car was pointed straight. I had them howling a lot, without producing many G's. When they wear out I'm going to try something better, I suspect it will be a night and day difference. Until then I'll have to try lowering pressure a bit (I ran at the stock 45psi).
Like Doug, I was only able to get 1 lap in at full power. I once pulled off after ~4-5 laps and the car was howling like a jet engine. Those cooling fans sure do make a lot of noise, it was the first time I've heard them.
I think I saw my avg. consumption hit 1200Wh/km.I can't wait to go back.
I went with a friend who has a Shelby GT-500. We swapped cars for a bit and also rode shotgun. I have to say, I think the Model S is a better road car but on the track he had me beat in every aspect with the exception of the ability to hear tire noise and fuel costs.
smorgasbord
Active Member
With Refuel coming to Laguna Seca in about a week, it'll be interesting to see how the Roadsters and Model S's fare.
I recently had the dual-fan upgrade done to my v2.5. In my daily 2000' climb, I've definitely noticed that my PEM runs cooler, and if I back off, its temp drops much more quickly than it used to. I don't know that I have the records, but my recollection was that the PEM temp was the limiting factor on the track last year. Outside temps, however, were pretty high IIRC. I think the PEM cools pretty quickly with a good fan and lowish outside temps, but the motor takes longer to cool (more thermal mass?). Assuming I go on the track this year (I haven't really decided yet), I'll definitely pull the logs to see what happened.
I recently had the dual-fan upgrade done to my v2.5. In my daily 2000' climb, I've definitely noticed that my PEM runs cooler, and if I back off, its temp drops much more quickly than it used to. I don't know that I have the records, but my recollection was that the PEM temp was the limiting factor on the track last year. Outside temps, however, were pretty high IIRC. I think the PEM cools pretty quickly with a good fan and lowish outside temps, but the motor takes longer to cool (more thermal mass?). Assuming I go on the track this year (I haven't really decided yet), I'll definitely pull the logs to see what happened.
track review at Last week's Refuel. Driver is a NASA enduro multi winner.
Tesla S Electric car
basically, power cuts out after 4 turns.....sucks big time
Tesla S Electric car
basically, power cuts out after 4 turns.....sucks big time
Volker.Berlin
Member
Interesting detail: "Oddly, the Tesla factory cars did not suffer from this in the time trial, and as a result ran in their own class instead of the "public" class."
cfOH
Member
Beats me - I'm the NASA guy William mentions.
It seemed pretty consistent - around 20 seconds, maybe less of full throttle and the power limit would cut in (seemed like more of a timed shut off than a temperature one, as the day warmed up by 20F but the problem didn't get worse). At Laguna Seca the 20 seconds will get you from start-finish to between turns 4 and 5, leaving two long up-hill straights to enjoy at low power. On the plus side the handling is awesome (as previously mentioned), particularly considering the skinny stock tires and tonnage.
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