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Model S Performance vs BMW M5

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#321
I'm sure you'll be back in fanboy mode once your Model S is in your driveway Outsider. :)

On another note, that M5 sounds wicked!!! (Although I equally appreciate that the S does it in complete silence)

AnOutsider said:
This is definitely cool, but worthy of all the hoopla? We've got guys trolling, bending facts and all around fanboying for the S. tesla can and has issued recalls, and no, theres no oil pumps and such, but there are other components that can overheat and degrade. the bmw guys don't meed to worry about range or decrease in performance/range over time either.

It's a win for the S, but lets not pretend it has no faults.
Click to expand...
 
#323
Getting excited is ok, but I'd prefer we maintained objectivity and stuck to facts.

CapitalistOppressor said:
My 535i is making a nasty noise when I start it up on a hill. Some problem with the transmission being stressed in park or something (I haven't looked at it since it just started happening).
Click to expand...
A good habit is to set the parking brake before releasing the foot brake so you don't "stress the transmission in park".
 
#324
doug said:
Getting excited is ok, but I'd prefer we maintained objectivity and stuck to facts.


A good habit is to set the parking brake before releasing the foot brake so you don't "stress the transmission in park".
Click to expand...

Another thing you can do is put the car into neutral then back into park (or just stab the clutch if you have a MT) after you pull the parking brake.
 
#326
The big deal with the video is that is shows the Model S Performance is no slouch and can hold its own against the M5 in certain situations. It's a real car and can hang with the M5 but still be driven normally and be more efficient than a Prius. Not a bad combination.
 
#327
spatterso911 said:
Whoa, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. I really don't think the 60 would have good odds in that test.

As I weigh in, I'd say 2 out of 3 times MSP won, but what was so different in the 1 time it lost?? I'd want to know what factored in, causing the MSP to lose, or the M5 to be faster. One thing for certain, as the cars reached the finish line, you could tell that the M5 was developing speed at a quicker rate by that time, which seems to fit the car's character. I'm excited to see the MSP beat the M5. I think we all calculated correctly, but I choose to remain humble and respect that for ICE sedans, the M5 is a truly remarkable machine.
Click to expand...

The theory I've been going with is based purely off of the underlying stats and our analysis we've gone through in this thread. The M5 is marginally faster if it gets a perfect launch. Anything less than a perfect launch and it is very likely to be slower because the Model S is consistently fast without resorting to a special launch sequence. You press the pedal and go. Fast.

So basically it comes down to the fact that the M5 driver needs to pull off a (relatively) complicated sequence perfectly to win. In this testing he managed that only 1 out of 3 times. My guess is that with repeated practice you might be able to get this to more of an even money type thing. Even then you will likely be beaten off the line and watch the Model S pull ahead through 80mph because of all your mechanical lags, but you will be able to reel the MSP and turn a close loss into a close win.

The need for perfection on the part of the M5 driver is the primary reason I feel confident that the MSP can win a fair share of 1/4 mile contests. Something in the neighborhood of 1/4 seems likely with the odds potentially rising if you get some environmental variables on your side or if the MSP driver has particularly good reaction times. Model S has been consistently measured at a half second slower than the best DCT times. But a "best" DCT time is not even close to a given and a failed launch turns the race into a winnable one.

And of course that is only applicable with the DCT. With a manual transmission the best 1/4 mile times for the M5 are scarcely better than the MSP (12.4 vs 12.5). Most drivers will fail to be perfect in operating their manual transmission and there is very little margin for error. MSP is probably an even money bet at that point (possibly better).

In terms of lessons learned, there are a few.

1.) Race at 1/8th mile drag strips. You will win every time and can piss off half the blogging world by posting a YouTube video.
2.) It seems more likely than ever that Model S will win on a tight road course. It has a big advantage in acceleration at speeds below ~80mph, better brakes, and good enough handling. In fact, Gingerman Raceway where this test occurred would be perfect. It would be awesome if Automobile mag comes out with some new video.
3.) Post a YouTube video of your victory. It's the most effective trolling method ever conceived. :)

- - - Updated - - -

Todd Burch said:
MSP likely lost the third race as the drivetrain heated up and lost efficiency. We've seen that with other tests as well. To get max performance, MSP needs to cool down a bit between each drag run.

Both Tesla fanboys and M5 fanboys should show respect for both machines. All else being equal, the MSP will likely usually win in a short drag race like this. All else being equal, the M5 will likely usually win in a quarter mile race.

I respect both cars...but am happy that the MSP performs better in any real-world scenario you'd encounter on the street. Now if only I had bumped my 85 non-perf order to an MSP...
Click to expand...

We don't know which order the Model S won its races. It was not a hot day in Michigan when they did this testing, which is why I subscribe more to the idea that a perfect launch on the M5 can win the race.

- - - Updated - - -

AnOutsider said:
This is definitely cool, but worthy of all the hoopla? We've got guys trolling, bending facts and all around fanboying for the S. tesla can and has issued recalls, and no, theres no oil pumps and such, but there are other components that can overheat and degrade. the bmw guys don't meed to worry about range or decrease in performance/range over time either.

It's a win for the S, but lets not pretend it has no faults.
Click to expand...

+1

In fairness though, my reaction is based more on the fact that there is a large segment of ICE folks out there saying the test was rigged. That's pure foolishness.
 
#328
CapitalistOppressor said:
We don't know which order the Model S won its races. It was not a hot day in Michigan when they did this testing, which is why I subscribe more to the idea that a perfect launch on the M5 can win the race.

- - - Updated - - -



+1

In fairness though, my reaction is based more on the fact that there is a large segment of ICE folks out there saying the test was rigged. That's pure foolishness.
Click to expand...

The better word would be "denial"

honestly you can see the m5 pull near the end of the run... more hp... if it was a longer distance the m5 would win out
 
#330
#331
CapitalistOppressor said:
The M5 is marginally faster if it gets a perfect launch. Anything less than a perfect launch and it is very likely to be slower because the Model S is consistently fast without resorting to a special launch sequence. You press the pedal and go. Fast.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know what the normal-mode performance of the M5 F10 is … ? I suspect the MSP will spank it good and proper in default mode.


The M5 vs MSP video shows what happens after the M5 driver has read the manual and set up all the launch controls, and spent many seconds getting the car ready for its big launch moment.

The BMW drivers manual states that the car will not do a full-on launch unless its been warmed up for 6 uninterrupted miles of driving. If not, you might lunch your M5, rather than launch it.



CapitalistOppressor said:
So basically it comes down to the fact that the M5 driver needs to pull off a (relatively) complicated sequence perfectly to win. In this testing he managed that only 1 out of 3 times.
Click to expand...


Here's a summary of all the M5 tick boxes that must be checked before any super fast launch (Warning: contains humor) :-

(1) Turn on car, and drive carefully for 6 miles to warm it all up (the BMW manual says the car will not allow a launch mode otherwise. Could be embarrassing)
(2) read your hidden memo behind sunvisor reminding you how to set up the launch mode
(3) disable the DSC control
(4) manually shift into driving-program-mode "S3"
(5) step on brake lightly
(6) hold the gear the selector forward for a moment, not to long else it will drop back
(7) then, finally, check to see if the other car is still alongside (!) … and floor the throttle.

(7a) if other car = vanished, then discreetly abandon launch, and nonchalantly drive ahead with elbow casually resting against window, or pretend to use mobile phone.
(8) If launch = occurred, then quickly look in rear view mirror to see if bits of gearbox/clutch/flywheel have dropped out in a big oily mess.
(8a) If 8=true, then locate credit card and call BMW service. Prepare to be told that the cars ECU has reported your abuse on more than 5 occasions in one month, and possibly expect to pay upfront before they consider putting it all back together for you.


Whereas the MSP, like the Roadster, will give you instant maximum performance from cold just by twitching your right foot, and you'll be over the horizon before the M5 guy has looked up to see where you went.


The M5 is a brilliant machine. But I'll take the MSP, thanks.
 
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#334
Couple of notes:

1. Some are claiming that this was a 6 speed car (not dual clutch) and that launch control was not used. If true, then the test isn't exactly fair.
2. The launch control settings can be preset into one of two "M" buttons, so launch control is a single click operation (and a hold shifter forward until ready to launch).
3. It is well known and well understood that the MSP will *ALWAYS* beat the M5 "off the line" and the M5 will *ALWAYS* catch up, the point of intercept (in terms of elapsed time, distance covered, speed at intercept) will depend on the quality of the M5's launch.
4. The chanced of an M5 randomly pulling up to an MSP at a light and having both drivers willing to drag race is approximately zero in the real world. I don't see how launch control is a "gimmick" given that in the real world, the drivers will have plenty of time to prep their cars for any race.
5. Don't know about you guys, but most of my felonious play occurs on freeways, and the from-a-roll results may be very different than from a dig.
6. MSP is an amazing car and anyone who doesn't buy one solely because it is "not as fast as an M5" is an idiot. Raw performance is not a meaningful distinguishing factor between these cars.
7. Anyone stupid enough to run 0-100MPH from a stoplight will not lift the throttle at 100MPH, in which case the M5 will always win.8
8. As I have noted before, what we need is some amateur science experiments (with video and GPS logging) to truly characterize the straight-line performance of both cars. After my M5 arrives (and, ahem, the oil pump is replaced) in a couple of weeks, I would love to participate in such experiments. Can I humbly suggest that a bold MSP owner show up to this airstrip event on 11/10/12 in NorCal: EuroSunday - Exotic, rare and vintage car and motorcycle owners.
 
#335
chrisn said:
Couple of notes:

1. Some are claiming that this was a 6 speed car (not dual clutch) and that launch control was not used. If true, then the test isn't exactly fair.
2. The launch control settings can be preset into one of two "M" buttons, so launch control is a single click operation (and a hold shifter forward until ready to launch).
3. It is well known and well understood that the MSP will *ALWAYS* beat the M5 "off the line" and the M5 will *ALWAYS* catch up, the point of intercept (in terms of elapsed time, distance covered, speed at intercept) will depend on the quality of the M5's launch.
4. The chanced of an M5 randomly pulling up to an MSP at a light and having both drivers willing to drag race is approximately zero in the real world. I don't see how launch control is a "gimmick" given that in the real world, the drivers will have plenty of time to prep their cars for any race.
5. Don't know about you guys, but most of my felonious play occurs on freeways, and the from-a-roll results may be very different than from a dig.
6. MSP is an amazing car and anyone who doesn't buy one solely because it is "not as fast as an M5" is an idiot. Raw performance is not a meaningful distinguishing factor between these cars.
7. Anyone stupid enough to run 0-100MPH from a stoplight will not lift the throttle at 100MPH, in which case the M5 will always win.8
8. As I have noted before, what we need is some amateur science experiments (with video and GPS logging) to truly characterize the straight-line performance of both cars. After my M5 arrives (and, ahem, the oil pump is replaced) in a couple of weeks, I would love to participate in such experiments. Can I humbly suggest that a bold MSP owner show up to this airstrip event on 11/10/12 in NorCal: EuroSunday - Exotic, rare and vintage car and motorcycle owners.
Click to expand...

Folks who claim this wasn't a DCT didn't read the Automobile Magazine writeup -

A seven-speed dual-clutch transmission directs that power to the rear wheels.
Click to expand...

Feature Flick: Tesla Model S Out-Drags BMW M5 - Rumor Central

They could certainly have done more to clarify whether, or how launch control was used. Based on the video my guess is that it was used, but possibly incorrectly. If you listen carefully you can hear what sounds to me like a rev limiter kicking in on the M5 just before it launches. That is the classic sign that a launch controller is being used (regardless of make). This occurs at the 24 second mark and sounds like a breathy "wuf wuf" immediately before the car launches while the brake lights are still lit.

My understanding of the M5 launch control is that it keeps the brakes locked prior to releasing the paddle (and launching) and I can think of no other reason for the driver to be applying throttle with the brakes engaged. This is reinforced by the fact that the brake lights turn off the instant the car launches. All of this in consistent with launch control. (And none of it is consistent with a manual transmission in case the magazine was wrong).

I suggest looking for yourself on the video by repeatedly clicking on the 24 second mark while listening to the engine sounds and watching the brake lights. As someone who has actually used launch control on the BMW you might have a better explanation, but I've heard rev limiters before and that's what it sounds like to me.

The only nitpick I have is whether the BMW driver waited too long to step on the throttle, and thus fully prime the launch. There has been commentary (from Car and Driver test notes) that if you hold the paddle up too long with the engine revving it disengages the launch control system (their precise wording is "it falls out") which I presume is for safety. If you can only hold it in this condition for a second or two it makes it difficult to anticipate a launch command.

If it is able to hold itself in that condition for longer than that, the driver probably made a mistake by not doing so. If you can't remain in the pre-launch state for long, than the driver did everything correctly except to anticipate the "go" command. This obviously is more of a problem when you don't have visual light tree to guide you.

Whatever the case is I'm skeptical of the spin in the bimmer forums. It is already known to be a DCT, and it looks and sounds to me an awful lot like what I would expect launch control to look and sound like. If there is a problem it comes down to a slight delay by the driver, as opposed to being some crippled launch by the M5.

Edit: On another note, my understanding is that the Euro version of M5 has the rev limiter set @4000 RPM's vs 1500 for the U.S. model. Am I right that you have a Euro version because you picked it up in Europe?

Edit2: If so your rev limiter will have a bit more of a snarl than the model used in the video, so keep that in mind when comparing.
 
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#338
CapitalistOppressor said:
This is reinforced by the fact that the brake lights turn off the instant the car launches. All of this in consistent with launch control. (And none of it is consistent with a manual transmission in case the magazine was wrong).
Click to expand...

With launch control, the brake lights would not have been on immediately prior to launch.

- - - Updated - - -

CapitalistOppressor said:
Edit: On another note, my understanding is that the Euro version of M5 has the rev limiter set @4000 RPM's vs 1500 for the U.S. model. Am I right that you have a Euro version because you picked it up in Europe?

Edit2: If so your rev limiter will have a bit more of a snarl than the model used in the video, so keep that in mind when comparing.
Click to expand...

That was the case in the E60. The F10 has full launch control (apparently-- I didn't try it). Also, you don't hit the rev limiter pre-launch, it holds at an adjustable RPM defaulting to 3K I think. Basically pre spools the turbos and prevents bogging with WOT at zero speed, which makes a significant difference.

When you do european delivery, you still get a U.S. spec car.

For Nth time, let's settle this in person with real production cars. Who in the SF Bay Area is game?

- - - Updated - - -

CapitalistOppressor said:
As someone who has actually used launch control on the BMW you might have a better explanation, but I've heard rev limiters before and that's what it sounds like to me.
Click to expand...

I does NOT sound like launch control, which is a constant RPM pre launch, not a variable RPM as is heard. Also, you can hear significant wheel spin in the 1-2 shift which is NOT characteristic of a launch control start. Typical is a "chirp" (and NOT spin) in the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts (that's the whole point of launch control--- to manage the TQ to get the power down (and to pre-spool the turbos)).

That said, the video shown (and the audio included) might not be from the actual time trials, so we really need the tester to clarify.
 
#340
chrisn said:
With launch control, the brake lights would not have been on immediately prior to launch.

- - - Updated - - -



That was the case in the E60. The F10 has full launch control (apparently-- I didn't try it). Also, you don't hit the rev limiter pre-launch, it holds at an adjustable RPM defaulting to 3K I think. Basically pre spools the turbos and prevents bogging with WOT at zero speed, which makes a significant difference.

When you do european delivery, you still get a U.S. spec car.

For Nth time, let's settle this in person with real production cars. Who in the SF Bay Area is game?

- - - Updated - - -




I does NOT sound like launch control, which is a constant RPM pre launch, not a variable RPM as is heard. Also, you can hear significant wheel spin in the 1-2 shift which is NOT characteristic of a launch control start. Typical is a "chirp" (and NOT spin) in the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts (that's the whole point of launch control--- to manage the TQ to get the power down (and to pre-spool the turbos)).

That said, the video shown (and the audio included) might not be from the actual time trials, so we really need the tester to clarify.
Click to expand...

BMW M5 M6 Launch Control - Instructions How to Setup - YouTube

Here is a video with nice external shots of the m5 during launch. As you say no brake lights (though the brakes apparently lock according to various sources). However you can clearly hear a rev limiter. Because of how revlimiters work they don't hold at a constant level of revs, but rather beat up against a limit, back off and beat against it again.

In the video you can hear the changes in amplitude, and they are different from what you hear in the model s video. However, the model s video also sounds like a rev limiter engaged and the amplitude could be different because the car launched almost immediately (ie we are hearing just a single lobe).

As to the brake lights, they seem to be key. If launch control can't be engaged with one foot still on the brake while one foot is on the gas then I don't see why the lights would be on. If the computer doesn't care, then it still seems possible.

Hopefully smorgasbord gets his car and we can generate some public domain data instead of relying on spliced together video that is supposed to represent three different runs with no explanation of methodology :)

- - - Updated - - -

smorgasbord said:
I'll be game when I have my car, which is probably mid to late November.
Click to expand...

Make sure you trick him onto a poor surface. Tire chirps don't get turned into wheel spin without a bunch of junk on the ground :)

Note: Did the earlier post off of my iPhone, and on a real computer there is even a bigger difference between the sounds of the actual rev limiter in the M5 launch video and what I perceive to be a limiter in the Model S video.

Makes me curious as to what it alternative technique would sound like that. There is throttle before the brakes are released. Wonder if the car is in gear and thats the rev limiter that protects the transmission?

Gas is being applied, the engine is not revving freely and the car is not moving until a instant after the brakes are released. All consistent with some kind of launch technique, whether computer controlled or not.
 
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