Model S range and interior update imminent?

[RobStark]

There is no point treating Tesla purchases like traditional ICE vehicles. There is no 'model year' and no 'refresh' / 'new model' that you can wait for and buy after, to ensure that you won't see any changes for the next couple of years or so.

Whenever you purchase your Tesla you can be certain that there will be something changed within 3-9 months after your purchase, just have to get used to it...

Changes will get drip-fed over time, some bigger than others, but the only certainty is there will be more of them

Thera are model years. You can buy a 2012, 2013, 2014 Tesla etc.

And there are refreshes. Ditching the nosecone was one. Raven another.

Difference is refreshes don't correspond to Model Years.

 

[MP3Mike]

Thera are model years. You can buy a 2012, 2013, 2014 Tesla etc.

I would argue that those aren't model years. They are manufactured years. Tesla doesn't have model years.

 

[RobStark]

Agree. The Y is the future of the company. S/X are nice-to-haves at this point and secondary priority.

Tesla should prioritize the higher volume product.

But Tesla,at some point, needs to put on their big boy pants.

And Walk & Chew Gum at the same time.

 

[RobStark]

I would argue that those aren't model years. They are manufactured years. Tesla doesn't have model years.

That is semantics argument absurdum.

 

[Jake C]

Haven’t heard any thing from the inside about a change. My only hedge is that the announcement is still in September but you maybe can’t get the new interior until Jan which would make it technically next year. Also look for an unveiling or major announcement regarding the pickup at the same time. Should only be about 70 days from now

I feel like they will introduce the new interior like they did with the Raven update. It would kill sales to introduce months in advance. January seems smart to time with the end of federal rebates. Maybe the truck interior will show a glimpse into the future S/X interior coming, however, at the price point Elon has mentioned for the truck it might share more with the 3/Y lineup.

 

[jebinc]

That is semantics argument absurdum.

I would tend to agree as when you trade the car in, or get a valuation, it's based on the year (manufactured or model year). So, for all practical purposes, it's model year.

 

[wdolson]

The S HAS to get upgrades, plain and simple. Raven wasn’t enough. They have to keep selling their premium flagship product, especially with cars like the Taycan on the horizon. They’re not going to abandon the S/X in favor of the 3/Y.

If you set aside bragging rights, they really don't need the S/X in the lineup. The 3/Y and trucks are the future vehicles that will make or break the company. Until the last half of 2018 the S/X were carrying the company, but the Model 3 began to dominate sales and has become the main bread winner. The Model Y is going to expand this even further.

The $100K vehicle market is a niche, it's never going to be very large and it's going to get very crowded with EVs soon. Tesla would be better off dropping the S/X or moving them downmarket. The $60K market is much larger and they can be competitive with the S/X there. Though it may still be more profitable to build more 3/Ys and drop the S/X for a while.

Tesla is in a position where it needs to maximize profits, both to keep the stock price up and to fuel future growth. They need to look at how much profit each square foot of factory space is generating and if converting the S/X lines to Model Y production will bring in much more profit, then it would be foolish to keep the S/X on the market right now. This will disappoint a relative handful of people who want an ultra-luxurious S/X. I don't think a majority of S/X owners want an ultra luxurious edition. I'd like a bit more cabin storage in mine, but that's about the only thing I'd upgrade.

All the gadgets in European luxury cars is fun to look at in a Doug DeMuro video, but it's nothing I want.

Despite GM pulling out of the mainstream market GM still markets Cadillac in Europe.

In Europe Ford has Vignale Spec trim levels instead of Lincoln. £30k for a Ford Mondeo Vignale?

Both Cadillac and Lincoln compete in China too.

The top trim model of the Ford Fusion in the US has a base price of $40K. I suspect it's a lot like the Vignale, or possibly the Fusion Titanium which starts at $34K.

American luxury cars sell well in China, but China is a completely different market than the rest of the world. It's the fastest growing with a large number of first time car buyers which is a completely different playing field. In developed countries almost every car buyer is coming from another car, some are upgrading, while others are moving to a newer version of the same car. Developed countries also have large used markets and every new car is competing with used vehicles which are just as good in most cases.

Lincoln and Buick probably would have been discontinued by now if it wasn't for Chinese sales.

I did look up GM sales in Europe. The numbers differ a bit from site to site (probably because different sites include different mix of countries), but since the sales of Vauxhall and Opel, GM sales in Europe have been tiny.
Here's one site:
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/general-motors/

and another that breaks out models:
Sure, GM Europe Is Gone, but the Automaker Hasn't Entirely Pulled up Stakes - The Truth About Cars

Bentley sold 5X more cars in the US last year than Cadillac sold in Europe. MCLaren sold 2X more cars in the US than Cadillac did in Europe. I don't know why GM is even bothering, but it's clear they aren't really competing in Europe right now.

 

[jebinc]

If you set aside bragging rights, they really don't need the S/X in the lineup. The 3/Y and trucks are the future vehicles that will make or break the company. Until the last half of 2018 the S/X were carrying the company, but the Model 3 began to dominate sales and has become the main bread winner. The Model Y is going to expand this even further.

The $100K vehicle market is a niche, it's never going to be very large and it's going to get very crowded with EVs soon. Tesla would be better off dropping the S/X or moving them downmarket. The $60K market is much larger and they can be competitive with the S/X there. Though it may still be more profitable to build more 3/Ys and drop the S/X for a while.

Tesla is in a position where it needs to maximize profits, both to keep the stock price up and to fuel future growth. They need to look at how much profit each square foot of factory space is generating and if converting the S/X lines to Model Y production will bring in much more profit, then it would be foolish to keep the S/X on the market right now. This will disappoint a relative handful of people who want an ultra-luxurious S/X. I don't think a majority of S/X owners want an ultra luxurious edition. I'd like a bit more cabin storage in mine, but that's about the only thing I'd upgrade.

All the gadgets in European luxury cars is fun to look at in a Doug DeMuro video, but it's nothing I want.



The top trim model of the Ford Fusion in the US has a base price of $40K. I suspect it's a lot like the Vignale, or possibly the Fusion Titanium which starts at $34K.

American luxury cars sell well in China, but China is a completely different market than the rest of the world. It's the fastest growing with a large number of first time car buyers which is a completely different playing field. In developed countries almost every car buyer is coming from another car, some are upgrading, while others are moving to a newer version of the same car. Developed countries also have large used markets and every new car is competing with used vehicles which are just as good in most cases.

Lincoln and Buick probably would have been discontinued by now if it wasn't for Chinese sales.

I did look up GM sales in Europe. The numbers differ a bit from site to site (probably because different sites include different mix of countries), but since the sales of Vauxhall and Opel, GM sales in Europe have been tiny.
Here's one site:
General Motors European sales figures

and another that breaks out models:
Sure, GM Europe Is Gone, but the Automaker Hasn't Entirely Pulled up Stakes - The Truth About Cars

Bentley sold 5X more cars in the US last year than Cadillac sold in Europe. MCLaren sold 2X more cars in the US than Cadillac did in Europe. I don't know why GM is even bothering, but it's clear they aren't really competing in Europe right now.

I agree with most of your points (particularly the point where Tesla may just focus on 3/y and trucks, as I made that point earlier in this thread), but think high European tariffs on US luxury cars may be part of the GM/Cadillac sales problem there. Personally, I would never touch the brand.

 

[Magellan55]

The S HAS to get upgrades, plain and simple. Raven wasn’t enough. They have to keep selling their premium flagship product, especially with cars like the Taycan on the horizon. They’re not going to abandon the S/X in favor of the 3/Y.

Taycan is a Model 3 sized car - barely fits 4 people. Model S competes more with the Panamera - haven't seen any plans to electrify that beyond PHEV. All the other EV's coming out are Model Y competitors - small 2 row SUV's that might fit inside a Model X. And those falcon doors will always set it apart - nothing else like them.

 

[FlatSix911]

They have updated the tail lights. Newer designs don;t have the condensation issue.

I think the Model S tail lights look just fine. I'd greatly value an interior door pocket or compartment more than any tail light update.

Also not implementing frivolous exterior changes helps with the resale value of vehicles.

The Model S exterior still looks thoroughly modern and I would like them to change as little of it as possible.

The tail lights were not updated. The condensation fix was corrected with a new tailgate chrome strip over the lights.

 

[FlatSix911]

If you set aside bragging rights, they really don't need the S/X in the lineup. The 3/Y and trucks are the future vehicles that will make or break the company. Until the last half of 2018 the S/X were carrying the company, but the Model 3 began to dominate sales and has become the main bread winner. The Model Y is going to expand this even further. The $100K vehicle market is a niche, it's never going to be very large and it's going to get very crowded with EVs soon. Tesla would be better off dropping the S/X or moving them downmarket. The $60K market is much larger and they can be competitive with the S/X there. Though it may still be more profitable to build more 3/Ys and drop the S/X for a while.

Tesla needs to have a higher-end halo vehicle until the Roadster arrives... the Model S and X are it for now

 

[Mark_T]

Thera are model years. You can buy a 2012, 2013, 2014 Tesla etc.

And there are refreshes. Ditching the nosecone was one. Raven another.

Difference is refreshes don't correspond to Model Years.

You missed my point, buying a Raven now does not give you any certainty that in 60 days time there will not be another change that you'd have wanted and another one 60 days after that... With the traditional ICE approach a refresh gives you certainty that you've got the latest for some months or even years.

Also there really aren't any model years for Tesla, having a 2017 tells you nothing about which AP hardware you have, or a 2018 doesn't tell you which MCU is fitted...

 

[MacGreiner]

Maybe this is a lonely point of view, but I think the current S exterior design is about perfect. It looks amazing. Don't change it.
The interior however feels like the opposite of standard Tesla design - that it indeed feels less spacious inside than you imagine it to be. The rear seat for anyone 5'10" and above is laughable. I'd much rather do a road trip in the back of a 3 than in the back of an S right now.

 

[Speedr117]

For being "dated", every single person that sees or gets into my Model S is wowed, and not one of them thinks it's not futuristic and awesome. Sometimes, the MSM, car media and Tesla fans who've lived with the car just get used to it. The vast majority of people haven't!

 

[DocZ]

Taycan is a Model 3 sized car - barely fits 4 people. Model S competes more with the Panamera - haven't seen any plans to electrify that beyond PHEV. All the other EV's coming out are Model Y competitors - small 2 row SUV's that might fit inside a Model X. And those falcon doors will always set it apart - nothing else like them.

While that’s true, the Taycan will always be compared to a Model S, not the 3. And because Porsche/VW pay for ads, you can expect a ton of incorrect info out there and several large publications that will say the Taycan is better. Those ads don’t work on people like you and me, but they do work on the general consumer who doesn’t know anything about EVs. Tesla’s must maintain their competitive edge by constantly going above and beyond on all of their models. Including continued upgrades for their flagship cars.

 

[Magellan55]

For being "dated", every single person that sees or gets into my Model S is wowed, and not one of them thinks it's not futuristic and awesome. Sometimes, the MSM, car media and Tesla fans who've lived with the car just get used to it. The vast majority of people haven't!

Funny, my new neighbor just stopped by, and asked to see my Tesla. He's a pickup truck guy, and didn't know anything about them. He asked me how I liked it, and as I opened the passenger door to point out the little quibbles about the interior (no door pockets, small visor) he stopped me and asked instead about the huge screen. We then spent 5 minutes going over all the cool stuff you can do on it. He called it a "car of the future". Similar reaction to other neighbors when we took them out to dinner last month - all they talked about was how cool the "big map" was.

Yeah, "dated" is probably the last term most would use on any Tesla...

 

[darxsys]

Funny, my new neighbor just stopped by, and asked to see my Tesla. He's a pickup truck guy, and didn't know anything about them. He asked me how I liked it, and as I opened the passenger door to point out the little quibbles about the interior (no door pockets, small visor) he stopped me and asked instead about the huge screen. We then spent 5 minutes going over all the cool stuff you can do on it. He called it a "car of the future". Similar reaction to other neighbors when we took them out to dinner last month - all they talked about was how cool the "big map" was.

Yeah, "dated" is probably the last term most would use on any Tesla...

Model S certainly isn’t dated. I get the same reactions whenever someone sits in mine.

But, it should get a few interior updates. The huge space inside just isn’t used well. Why no door pockets? Why? More storage space inside is desperately needed in my opinion. Why is there no pocket(s) or storage for sunglasses for example?

Climate controls in the back are also a must. I am currently traveling Europe in a rented Passat with a stock interior (very basic, doesn’t even have Apple Carplay) and this thing has buttons to regulate A/C temperature, located in front of the back seats. It’s such a basic thing to have.

Tesla is going way overboard with this “everything in one screen” paradigm. Give us a couple of useful buttons, some more storage and don’t touch anything else and it’s enough for the next 10 years. It’s such a sleek, timeless design otherwise.

 

[wdolson]

While that’s true, the Taycan will always be compared to a Model S, not the 3. And because Porsche/VW pay for ads, you can expect a ton of incorrect info out there and several large publications that will say the Taycan is better. Those ads don’t work on people like you and me, but they do work on the general consumer who doesn’t know anything about EVs. Tesla’s must maintain their competitive edge by constantly going above and beyond on all of their models. Including continued upgrades for their flagship cars.

I doubt they will be advertising the Taycan much for a few years. Production will be limited and demand is currently high. When they do start advertising they will probably push the advantages the Taycan has over Tesla equivalents, but they have to be careful about making things up because that will come back to bite them. Few Porsche owners ever take their cars to the track, but most Porsche fans pay attention to what those who have taken the cars to the track have to say. If Porsche claims better performance from the Taycan and a Model 3P can trounce it on the track, news will get out. Though I expect the Taycan's track performance to be pretty good, Porsche does know what they are doing there.

I don't read car magazines, but I don't recall ever seeing a Porsche ad on TV or non-car magazines. Maybe they do in Europe? I've seen VW and Audi ads many times. Advertising also involves talking up the car to the car media, and they probably will be doing that.

The Taycan might end up being like the Chevy Bolt, a flash in the pan at first, then a year later they have trouble selling them. In the end it probably won't put much of a dent in Tesla sales. Production is too limited and it's too expensive for what you get. Die hard Porsche fans will declare it the best EV ever made, but the rest of the world will probably be "meh" about it.

At the end of the day it's essentially a high performance touring sedan, but it lacks both range and space compared to the Model S Performance and lacks range compared to the Model 3 Performance, and until high speed CCS becomes common, charging on the road is going to be a poorer experience than Tesla's. The price is going to be on par with a Model S Performance.

 

[FlatSix911]

I doubt they will be advertising the Taycan much for a few years. Production will be limited and demand is currently high. When they do start advertising they will probably push the advantages the Taycan has over Tesla equivalents, but they have to be careful about making things up because that will come back to bite them. Few Porsche owners ever take their cars to the track, but most Porsche fans pay attention to what those who have taken the cars to the track have to say. If Porsche claims better performance from the Taycan and a Model 3P can trounce it on the track, news will get out. Though I expect the Taycan's track performance to be pretty good, Porsche does know what they are doing there.

I don't read car magazines, but I don't recall ever seeing a Porsche ad on TV or non-car magazines. Maybe they do in Europe? I've seen VW and Audi ads many times. Advertising also involves talking up the car to the car media, and they probably will be doing that.

The Taycan might end up being like the Chevy Bolt, a flash in the pan at first, then a year later they have trouble selling them. In the end it probably won't put much of a dent in Tesla sales. Production is too limited and it's too expensive for what you get. Die hard Porsche fans will declare it the best EV ever made, but the rest of the world will probably be "meh" about it.

At the end of the day it's essentially a high performance touring sedan, but it lacks both range and space compared to the Model S Performance and lacks range compared to the Model 3 Performance, and until high speed CCS becomes common, charging on the road is going to be a poorer experience than Tesla's. The price is going to be on par with a Model S Performance.

As a long term PCA member, I can tell you Porsche has already started a direct mail campaign and other advertising to HNW individuals.
They know the future is electric and need to convert the faithful and not alienate their base.

I expect to see the Taycan at Pebble Beach and Laguna Seca next month... also guaranteed to be at ReFuel next year.

 

[Lifeinabox]

I just saw a Taycan test mule at my local mall over the weekend. It’s visually a big car and at first glance nearly as big as the Panamera. That plus the price - no way someone is cross shopping it against the 3. Definitely a sexy car that will capture the hearts and wallets. I hope Tesla responds in kind.