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ModelNforNerd
Active Member
I'm not going to jump to a lot of conclusions, but based on your descriptions and your avatar, I'd say we are at different places in our chosen paths in life.
My wife and I didn't start out rich, and by some measures, we probably still aren't rich. But as the one who does our taxes, I see the numbers, and I know that by some measures, we are considered rich now.
We're learning the tips and tricks and tax shelters, etc. We're not too extravagant (I moved her to MA from warmer climes, so I do owe her a warm weather vacation every year...).
I bought my last car almost 2 years ago in cash. And by the time the Model 3 is available, I hope to have that total in cash as well. I'll also have a trade-in, and hopefully still qualify for at least some of the tax break.
I know many people who either come into sudden money, or work hard to get there, and continue bad habits they've learned from when they had less. My wife and I aren't those people. We have a nice rainy day fund that gets bigger every month.
I'll get the Model 3, even though when the 1st 90D's with AP end up online for sale as CPO's, I could probably afford one....I just feel that a Model S is too big a vehicle for our needs.
There are many members on this forum who have put considerable time and effort (not to mention money) into purchasing and working on Tesla cars and sharing their insights on these fora.
The thought that individuals like lolachampcar might be at the front of the queue for a 3 is fine by me.
Bring it on.
The thought that individuals like lolachampcar might be at the front of the queue for a 3 is fine by me.
Bring it on.
Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't mind that owners get first pick because it's a nice reward, but it kinda bugs me that the only people who will end up receiving the tax credit are those who really don't need it.
This, I think, is the best argument against priority for current owners. Though I'm sure someone will remind us again that most people qualifying for the full credit also probably don't already need it.
But that's pure speculation. Nobody might end up getting the credit if it's delayed enough, or, more likely there will be lots of both owners and non-owners who will get the credit.
Brad_SC
Member
Houdini, you have to narrow it down a bit more... California is the center of the Universe, LMAO. Though in all fairness, something has to attract all of those great companies to California. Not sure what it is, but its certainly not the good vibrations.
I think everyone should begin to seriously consider potential changes to the federal tax incentive producer by the time any of us see our Model 3 Design Studio links arriving. Particularly considering we're in an election year, and with all the publicity this Model 3 and other EVs might spark in the coming 12-18 months, it seems entirely plausible that the way these incentives work could be radically different in two years time.
Take, for example, recent changes to the California State Rebate program, as generally outlined (before having been passed) by the following article: California Ends Electric-Car Rebates For Wealthy Buyers, Boosts Them For Poorest (UPDATED)
Basically, changes have already been discussed to help even out the gap between the wealthy and the not-so-wealthy in their joint effort to join the EV revolution. With any luck, for those of you concerned about missing out because Tesla sells too many cars to wealthy folks who don't "need" $7500 in their pocket, the rules might be altered to help manage that concern.
I haven't read anything about discussions for changes on the federal. I also haven't really looked. But two years is a long time.
I do not own a Tesla. I cannot afford a Model S. I will be in line early AM on March 31 to place my deposit and cross my fingers.
Take, for example, recent changes to the California State Rebate program, as generally outlined (before having been passed) by the following article: California Ends Electric-Car Rebates For Wealthy Buyers, Boosts Them For Poorest (UPDATED)
Basically, changes have already been discussed to help even out the gap between the wealthy and the not-so-wealthy in their joint effort to join the EV revolution. With any luck, for those of you concerned about missing out because Tesla sells too many cars to wealthy folks who don't "need" $7500 in their pocket, the rules might be altered to help manage that concern.
I haven't read anything about discussions for changes on the federal. I also haven't really looked. But two years is a long time.
I do not own a Tesla. I cannot afford a Model S. I will be in line early AM on March 31 to place my deposit and cross my fingers.
Apologies for not reading this entire thread before weighing in, but after 7 pages I think I've read enough.
To avoid elitism Tesla decided not to offer a Signature series on the Model 3. A good move IMO.
Despite what someone stated above, to my knowledge they've never offered Tesla owners any priority on orders other than perhaps the Roadster owners who attended the initial X prototype reveal event and were able to place orders there - a few hundred people at most?
As a 3-year S and soon to be X owner, (next week! fingers crossed) I don't feel owed anything - every day I feel privileged to drive my car. However early owners have certainly endured some hurdles that Tesla needed to overcome to get to the Model 3, and have supported Tesla in its journey financially and in other ways:
- In early 2013 there were six Superchargers in California and three on the east coast - counting Milford CT NB and SB separately. By the time the M3 is out there will probably be what, 500?
- There were no Destination Charging locations, and even Level 2 infrastructure was less built out than today.
- A lot of early issues (cracking windshields, bad main battery contacts, poorly weatherstripped panos, leaking tail light assemblies, bad 12V batteries, drive unit noises, steering clunks, wheel mis-alignments) were addressed well by Tesla Service, but still wound up inconveniencing owners, especially as there were far fewer Service Centers to go to, and fewer loaner cars.
- When Tesla didn't have cars to show or wasn't allowed by law to do test drives (e.g. in MA until some time in 2013), local owners took cars to town and campus events, Drive Electric Week, etc. to show and offer test rides.
- Owners' word of mouth and test drives have sold many more cars, further funding the Model 3 - and the referral programs are only recent and limited.
- Many owners have appeared at state legislative hearings to support Tesla against NADA-backed bills trying to limit Tesla's ability to sell directly.
- Owners often engage on news article comment boards to combat FUD about Tesla or EVs in general; speaking from personal experience clears a lot of FUD.
- Owners helped Tesla tally 97% satisfaction in the Consumer Reports car buyer surveys, and many have helped improve Tesla as a company by providing important feedback - via forums like TMC, direct to Tesla SCs and executives, and via the car's data feeds.
- Current owners will likely be more understanding and forgiving of initial quality issues, and able to provide appropriate feedback as production ramps up.
It's nice to see this customer loyalty is being recognized by Tesla, in a relatively small but meaningful way. And I really don't think "the sky is falling" for non-owners. There are a little over 50,000 Teslas sold in the US to date. Many owners have purchased multiple vehicles over time, further reducing the number of people with Model 3 order priority. Many stretched to buy their Model S, so don't have wads of cash to throw around on multiple M3 reservations. The federal tax credits take about a year to fade out gradually after Tesla hits 200,000 cars, while state incentives are unaffected. And the ultimate delivery dates will be determined by a function of reservation order, speed of configuring, location, and configuration options in addition to ownership.
So there is still plenty of reason to go to a store on March 31 - not to mention that we all expect the Model 3 to be a great car that further changes the game!
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I was the 'someone' who stated that owners had priority on Model S. They were offered both a 'friends and family' discount, plus Roadster owners were moved to the front of the line for Signature reservations. But only for a short while.
I know it wasn't indefinite, because after I purchased my Roadster, I looked into getting the same discount/priority on a Model S (Signatures were not yet sold out). I was told that the program had ended. Boo.
Non owner in the Midwest so I assume I will miss out on any tax credit. With that being said I think a Model 3 optioned to $45,000 will still be the best $45,000 car out there. If you get the tax credit you are lucky. Life is not fair but you just got a bonus. I was just not in the right place at the right time to be lucky. I still got $45,000 car for $45,000.
I think the Model 3 will stand up against the competition without a tax credit. That is the goal of Tesla.....I think.
Build a car that can compete on even ground.
I think the Model 3 will stand up against the competition without a tax credit. That is the goal of Tesla.....I think.
Build a car that can compete on even ground.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
Something to keep in mind if you're in MA:
You may still get some, or all, of the Federal EV Credit, but if you check enough boxes on your Model 3, and your sticker price is over $60,000 (which we aren't even certain will be possible with a Model 3 yet), you'll only get $1,000 state rebate, not $2,500.
Eligible Vehicles List | MOR-EV
You may still get some, or all, of the Federal EV Credit, but if you check enough boxes on your Model 3, and your sticker price is over $60,000 (which we aren't even certain will be possible with a Model 3 yet), you'll only get $1,000 state rebate, not $2,500.
Eligible Vehicles List | MOR-EV
I think it's also worth re-iterating the timeline on the "expiration" of these federal tax incentives.
Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Model 3 production goes relatively well and Model 3 purchases start counting against the 200,000 "cap" in Q4 2017. It's reasonable to assume that, with Model 3 hype building and proving viable for a much wider audience than the S and X, that the first several thousand qualify within the first 200,000 cars sold by Tesla in the United States. Let's throw an arbitrary date on this cap of January 1, 2018 (Day 1 of Q1 2018). Tesla "sells" their 200,000th US car on New Year's Day. Every person who has, as of that moment, purchased one qualifies for the $7,500 federal tax credit.
What it seems like a lot of people are forgetting is that, from there, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who purchases a Tesla for the entirety of the rest of Q1 (through March 31) ALSO qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. Thousands and thousands of people. Additionally, every person who purchases a Tesla in Q2 (April 1 - June 30) of 2018 would ALSO qualify for the $7,500. That's how it's set up. Only after Q3 (July 1) begins, following the quarter 200,000 are sold AND the quarter after, would the credit be reduced to 50%.
For anyone on these message boards considering putting a deposit down - people reading pages and pages of amateur commentary on a car that won't exist for 18+ months, ready to line-up at a car dealership on a Thursday to give $1000 away for a former pipe dream of a car - I feel I can say with confidence that the majority of us, barring any radical, unforeseen circumstances, will benefit from the federal tax incentive.
Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Model 3 production goes relatively well and Model 3 purchases start counting against the 200,000 "cap" in Q4 2017. It's reasonable to assume that, with Model 3 hype building and proving viable for a much wider audience than the S and X, that the first several thousand qualify within the first 200,000 cars sold by Tesla in the United States. Let's throw an arbitrary date on this cap of January 1, 2018 (Day 1 of Q1 2018). Tesla "sells" their 200,000th US car on New Year's Day. Every person who has, as of that moment, purchased one qualifies for the $7,500 federal tax credit.
What it seems like a lot of people are forgetting is that, from there, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who purchases a Tesla for the entirety of the rest of Q1 (through March 31) ALSO qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. Thousands and thousands of people. Additionally, every person who purchases a Tesla in Q2 (April 1 - June 30) of 2018 would ALSO qualify for the $7,500. That's how it's set up. Only after Q3 (July 1) begins, following the quarter 200,000 are sold AND the quarter after, would the credit be reduced to 50%.
For anyone on these message boards considering putting a deposit down - people reading pages and pages of amateur commentary on a car that won't exist for 18+ months, ready to line-up at a car dealership on a Thursday to give $1000 away for a former pipe dream of a car - I feel I can say with confidence that the majority of us, barring any radical, unforeseen circumstances, will benefit from the federal tax incentive.
And I hope they keep it this way. Otherwise, there would be rampant reselling of reservation numbers and we would all have to compete with scalpers on the 31st and the 1st.
Brad_SC
Member
If your tax burden is less than $7,500, why do you need a $7,500 tax credit?
Most of us have completed this year's income tax returns, what was your tax burden? Figure out which group you fit in:
>$7,500
<$7,500, but >$3,750
<$3,750, but >$1,875
<$1,875
Most of us have completed this year's income tax returns, what was your tax burden? Figure out which group you fit in:
>$7,500
<$7,500, but >$3,750
<$3,750, but >$1,875
<$1,875
We know how the phase out will work, but what we don't know is Tesla's ramp up and when which models will be delivered.
So I can understand everyone wanting to be "ahead" in line to make sure they get the most they can with what the IRS is offering. So if someone is in the middle tax bracket, not knowing the ramp up schedule, they'll want to get in early to make sure they at least get something before the tax credit fully phases out.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
well above. I'm lucky enough (if you want to look at it that way....) to get VA health care, but I also don't get the tax write-off everyone else does for their healthcare premiums.
I agree. Weird behaviour. It de-incentivises people queuing up. I'm certainly not going to stand in the cold and rain now. I'llget up at 5am and watch the launch and then maybe reserve online but it depends on how much the car "rocks my world"
