Model S/X Owners Have Priority Model 3 Orders Over Non-Owners

[Az_Rael]

View attachment 167827 The picture above is of my Model X.
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I think there are still many individuals who read this forum who think the purpose of the Federal EV Tax Credit was to allow the lower income population to afford to buy an electric vehicle. This EV Tax Credit was not meant to be a form of welfare. There are specific state level incentives and programs which serve the purpose to help lower income individuals afford electric cars but not this federal program.

The purpose of the Federal EV Tax Credit is incentivize people to purchase an EV car rather than a traditional car with a gas combustion engine therefore helping the adoption of new technology and the widespread use of electric vehicles. So it is currently meetings this purpose whether it is a person in the higher, mid or lower income levels who are purchasing these cars.

By Tesla creating such superb vehicles people will purchase their cars regardless of the incentives and there will be waiting lines to make the purchase. Those who are in the process of purchasing a new car of similar cost might decide to purchase the Tesla instead but the credit will be one of many factors not the only factor.

There have been bills introduced in the past few years which would have raised the cap from 200,000 to 500,000 and which would have increased the credit from $7,500 to $10,000. Neither of which could gain any support in a deadlocked congress. It doesn't look like this will change anytime soon. From my knowledge there isn't even anything pending to raise these levels.

I personally find it offensive when people indicate those who already own a Tesla don't deserve the credit, the credit which should be going to lower income individuals. It would be different if the purpose of the credit was to help low income earners to buy an electric car but it isn't, matter of fact it is the opposite, the only people who can take full advantage of it are mid to high wage earners. To me this is the mindset of the most current generations who feel they are entitled and expect things to be handed to them.

Both my wife and I put ourselves through college as neither of our parents could afford to put us through school. We were the first in our families to get a higher education and we both worked and went school at the same time to be able to afford college. Early on it was the choice between eating and buying school books. Many nights it was just rice or just potatoes.

During our life we both worked and at times we had more than one job. We saved and invested our money (some of it in TSLA) and after 40 years we have retired and saved enough money to buy a Tesla. No one ever gave us a handout nor did we ask for one. I think we deserve the Tesla and the $7,500 rebate. In several years (earlier if it is meant to be) I plan on getting my wife a Model 3 and hopefully it will be in time to get another rebate as she recently donated her Prius to someone who had no form of transportation and was the single mother of three. In the meantime I am sharing my Tesla Model X with my wife.

I think people are mostly upset about the possibility of not getting the $7500 (a lot of $$), and are lashing out against the easiest target: folks who have already gotten the credit, presumably current owners. You are correct that the effect of the credit helps higher income people more than lower income people. If they had wanted it to benefit lower income folks, it would have come with a income cap, or they could have made it refundable.

If someone wants the EV credit, it is available now and there are numerous great EVs and EREVs out there to choose from. I took advantage of it on my Volt. By the time mid-2018 rolls around, the credit may be reduced for ALL the "big three" EV car makers (GM, Nissan, Tesla) So if folks don't get a Model 3 in time, they might not be able to get it on a Bolt or a Leaf either.

I am not a huge fan of the credit. I wonder if the prices of the cars would be lower if it wasn't for the credit and manufacturers were forced to compete without it. They bake it in to all their marketing and I have to assume they are taking advantage of that. I feel the same way about the federal solar system credit - that it is priced into the systems, and when it finally doesn't get renewed, prices will come down.

Prius's eventually came down in price after their credit expired. And now they are priced just the same as regular compact cars. So, I feel the faster we get out from under the credit, the quicker the market will take over and the prices will normalize.

 

[SageBrush]

Message to all you folks who get to stand in line in front of me due to a prior S/X purchase: No problem. Thanks for supporting Tesla early on.

 

[SureValla]

I think people are mostly upset about the possibility of not getting the $7500 (a lot of $$), and are lashing out against the easiest target: folks who have already gotten the credit, presumably current owners. You are correct that the effect of the credit helps higher income people more than lower income people. If they had wanted it to benefit lower income folks, it would have come with a income cap, or they could have made it refundable.

If someone wants the EV credit, it is available now and there are numerous great EVs and EREVs out there to choose from. I took advantage of it on my Volt. By the time mid-2018 rolls around, the credit may be reduced for ALL the "big three" EV car makers (GM, Nissan, Tesla) So if folks don't get a Model 3 in time, they might not be able to get it on a Bolt or a Leaf either.

I am not a huge fan of the credit. I wonder if the prices of the cars would be lower if it wasn't for the credit and manufacturers were forced to compete without it. They bake it in to all their marketing and I have to assume they are taking advantage of that. I feel the same way about the federal solar system credit - that it is priced into the systems, and when it finally doesn't get renewed, prices will come down.

Prius's eventually came down in price after their credit expired. And now they are priced just the same as regular compact cars. So, I feel the faster we get out from under the credit, the quicker the market will take over and the prices will normalize.

I wonder if this is because people use the credit to buy more rather than save money. Unintended consequences

 

[ohmman]

My guess is that we can't guess at how they'll queue it. Will a previous owner who orders a base M☰ get it before a new owner who orders a fully loaded one? I doubt it. If the MX experience has taught me anything, it's that you can't be sure how things are going to roll out, and you shouldn't get too emotionally invested in where you stand in line. In general, someone who reserves early will beat someone who reserves later, given the exact same options. So if you plan to get a fully loaded Model ☰ and want it early, then you can worry about standing in line or whatever. If you plan on anything else, be aware that you very possibly are going to be disappointed with your overall build order.

 

[Az_Rael]

My guess is that we can't guess at how they'll queue it. Will a previous owner who orders a base M☰ get it before a new owner who orders a fully loaded one? I doubt it. If the MX experience has taught me anything, it's that you can't be sure how things are going to roll out, and you shouldn't get too emotionally invested in where you stand in line. In general, someone who reserves early will beat someone who reserves later, given the exact same options. So if you plan to get a fully loaded Model ☰ and want it early, then you can worry about standing in line or whatever. If you plan on anything else, be aware that you very possibly will going to be disappointed with your overall build order.

+1

I haven't done this process before, but after digging into the old (and ongoing) threads about build order, delivery dates, etc, I quickly figured out there isn't much rhyme or reason. Other manufacturers do the same thing. There were folks who ordered 6 months prior still waiting for their Gen 2 Volts while other cars were being trucked to the dealerships for folks to walk up and buy.

I doubt I will be able to afford a fully loaded one if the P model upgrade is priced similarly to a Model S ($20k). So I am gearing up to be midway through the release schedule.

 

[McHoffa]

I'm disappointed, but nothing I can do about it. All I know is, if I am in line on March 31, I will be ahead of someone in the same area, who gets the same options, who is not a current owner, who orders later. I will be ahead of whatever time I would get it if I waited until this summer. Sure, I'd probably not save any time now if it's standing in line vs ordering online that night, but it's going to be fun seeing everyone else and their Teslas, and I have a Model S test drive set up that day anyway. Fingers crossed that someone with a Model X shows up that day.

 

[vinnie97]

I'm not a fan of the decision, but I won't be eligible for the tax credit, so this ends up benefiting me by giving me more time to raise more funds (contingent upon the current vehicle lasting; if it does not, I will be stuck in an ICE for a long time to come). I won't drive 2 hours and wait in a line, I'm afraid. Online will have to suffice.

 

[trinites1a]

As an aspiring Tesla Model 3 owner, I feel fine with prioritization for current Tesla owners. Three reasons:
1.) Without them, there would be no Model 3. So thanks!
2.) I find it highly doubtful that every Tesla owner will be purchasing a Model 3 (let alone multiple). Sure, there will be some, but we are still talking cars starting at $35k.
3.) They will still probably ship the cars out by order of options, then region. So, I would imagine a current Tesla owner in Canada wouldn't probably get preference over a reservation in the US for the same high-end Model 3 that's within close reach of the factory.

Just my two cents.

1) +1 in agreement

2) Thank you.. There is no reason to assume every current tesla or tesla employee will all purchase a model 3.. There will be a couple hundred to low thousand ahead of a non owner but thats probably it at most....

3) That's also correct to it will be in stages... If you are going high options you wait will probably be insignificant at best.

 

[Foxhound199]

I was really excited when they announced that there would be no signature series for the Model ≡, but now I'm thinking it would have been a better idea: Make the Signature series a current owner exclusive. That way, you can further massage the egos (Oops, I mean "say thanks") to those who want to go first (special badging!), maybe even throw in a few tangible extras, but also get as much profit as you can from it. Don't want a fully optioned car with an extra reservation fee? Fine, get in line with everyone else.

 

[M0DEL³]

As a non-owner I want to know if I wait in line on the 31st, will an existing owner who orders online immediately after the event get priority over me (assuming the same location and options).

Yes, they will. And, like you, I too will be standing in line on the 31st. I'm totally fine with existing owners moving ahead of us - if not for them, we would not have a line to stand in. In fact, if I were Elon, I'd allow Roadster owners to get ahead of the Model S&X owners too!

I consider this excellent incentivizing, costs the company nothing and continues to promote brand-loyalty.

Well played Tesla!

 

[SageBrush]

I'm not a fan of the decision, but I won't be eligible for the tax credit, so this ends up benefiting me by giving me more time to raise more funds (contingent upon the current vehicle lasting; if it does not, I will be stuck in an ICE for a long time to come). I won't drive 2 hours and wait in a line, I'm afraid. Online will have to suffice.

Perhaps like you, I don't have a federal tax liability. That is one of the reasons I prefer to lease. Admittedly though, even if the federal tax credit has elapsed by the time I can take possession of the car I'll still lease.

Are you in Colorado ? I am, and I am hoping to take advantage of the state tax credit.

 

[SageBrush]

I think people are mostly upset about the possibility of not getting the $7500 (a lot of $$), and are lashing out against the easiest target: folks who have already gotten the credit, presumably current owners. You are correct that the effect of the credit helps higher income people more than lower income people. If they had wanted it to benefit lower income folks, it would have come with a income cap, or they could have made it refundable.

If someone wants the EV credit, it is available now and there are numerous great EVs and EREVs out there to choose from. I took advantage of it on my Volt. By the time mid-2018 rolls around, the credit may be reduced for ALL the "big three" EV car makers (GM, Nissan, Tesla) So if folks don't get a Model 3 in time, they might not be able to get it on a Bolt or a Leaf either.

I am not a huge fan of the credit. I wonder if the prices of the cars would be lower if it wasn't for the credit and manufacturers were forced to compete without it. They bake it in to all their marketing and I have to assume they are taking advantage of that. I feel the same way about the federal solar system credit - that it is priced into the systems, and when it finally doesn't get renewed, prices will come down.

Prius's eventually came down in price after their credit expired. And now they are priced just the same as regular compact cars. So, I feel the faster we get out from under the credit, the quicker the market will take over and the prices will normalize.

I'm not a proponent of tax credits (aka subsidies) either, because they distort markets and encourage corruption. OTOH, in our current environment of fossil fuel externalities the credits level the playing field a liiiitle.

From what I have read about subsidies, about half of the amount overall ends up in the consumer's pocket. I'm sure it varies quite a bit for any particular case. 'cash for clunkers' turned out to be a dealer bonanza.

I disagree with the notion that eV credits benefit rich people. The benefit to society is to get another EV on the roads, and to support a nascent industry. Those goals are not tied to the driver.

 

[MiamiNole]

I think people are mostly upset about the possibility of not getting the $7500 (a lot of $$), and are lashing out against the easiest target: folks who have already gotten the credit, presumably current owners.

I think people are starting to lump being upset about the possibility of not getting the full tax credit together with throwing blame at current owners without acknowledging that those two things can be mutually exclusive. I've even see people say that the $7500 isn't a "welfare" program and people who can't afford the Model S or X shouldn't be looking to it to discount the cost of a Model 3. In reality, it doesn't matter. As it stands now, the $7500 tax credit exists for everyone to take advantage of regardless of whether you're a current owner, can afford the Model S or X but simply want a 3, were looking to use the tax credit to make the Model 3 affordable, or anywhere in between. I'd expect anyone to be bummed out at some level if they were to miss out on $7500, regardless of where they stand. I'm not really getting why people are trying to justify why someone shouldn't be upset over the aforementioned possibility of missing out on the tax credit.

We don't know whether allowing current owners to reserve first will make much of a difference regarding tax credits since there are so many variables. I think most people are just venting their frustration over the unknown, which should be perfectly fine. I see no need for all the blaming and shaming from either side.

 

[Tam]

Signature series

Signature owners do get a discount when you compare maxed out versions between Signature and General Production.

The down side are 1) a big deposit sum and 2) being "early adopters."

As you mentioned, at least there's a limit ahead of the rest of the public such as 1,200 to 1,500 in the US.

When Tesla stopped offering Signature Series, there's no telling how many maxed out optioned orders.

It could be more than 1,500 initially which will be more than traditional Signature numbers.

However, remember, during Signature implementation, it was true that the mandatory maxed out optioned orders for that group were about 1,500 but after that, General Production owners could max out options in order to get their cars early too. So, there were no telling of how many maxed out optioned orders after the initial 1,500 Signatures either!

The difference for the wait for the rest of owners between the past implementation of Signature rule and current no-Signature rule is not much if initial Generation Production orders were maxed out either way.

 

[AnOutsider]

Signature owners do get a discount when you compare maxed out versions between Signature and General Production.

This was true on the X... Not always so on the S. Search "sig tax".

 

[Tam]

This was true on the X... Not always so on the S. Search "sig tax".

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Mark Z]

I just hope all the Tesla employees take delivery of their Model 3 vehicles first.

That way the Tesla employees can work through any corrective processes before the perfect production begins!

And above all, may Tesla Motors have one production quality Model 3 in every Tesla Store showroom before the Model 3 Design Studio is active.

 

[vinnie97]

Perhaps like you, I don't have a federal tax liability. That is one of the reasons I prefer to lease. Admittedly though, even if the federal tax credit has elapsed by the time I can take possession of the car I'll still lease.

Are you in Colorado ? I am, and I am hoping to take advantage of the state tax credit.

I am directly to your west. They offer $1500, but I think CO is even more generous. My federal tax liability isn't zero but it's close (such that deductions from solar PV alone have effectively made it zero).

 

[SageBrush]

I am directly to your west. They offer $1500, but I think CO is even more generous. My federal tax liability isn't zero but it's close (such that deductions from solar PV alone have effectively made it zero).

Specifics vary, but some credits can be "carried forward," meaning they do not have to used the year they were collected. I have one such credit that can be carried forward three years and I very vaguely remember reading about a credit that be carried for five years.

The Colorado Alt car credit is remarkably generous, refundable, and can be used for used and leased cars too. I don't however know if each year has a cap amount the state is willing to hand out. I'll have to find out as the time to build approaches.

Addendum: Not from the IRS, but here is some verbiage regarding the federal tax return:
"
Can I carry over my unused credit amount to a different tax year?

To the extent the credit is treated as a personal credit (i.e., attributable to personal driving) any unused credit can’t be carried over to another tax year. However, to the extent the vehicle is used in the purchaser’s business, a proportionate amount of the credit is treated as a general business credit and the unused business credit can be carried over to another tax year.

"

 

[Darryl]

I think people are mostly upset about the possibility of not getting the $7500 (a lot of $$), and are lashing out against the easiest target: folks who have already gotten the credit, presumably current owners. You are correct that the effect of the credit helps higher income people more than lower income people. If they had wanted it to benefit lower income folks, it would have come with a income cap, or they could have made it refundable.

If someone wants the EV credit, it is available now and there are numerous great EVs and EREVs out there to choose from. I took advantage of it on my Volt. By the time mid-2018 rolls around, the credit may be reduced for ALL the "big three" EV car makers (GM, Nissan, Tesla) So if folks don't get a Model 3 in time, they might not be able to get it on a Bolt or a Leaf either.

I am not a huge fan of the credit. I wonder if the prices of the cars would be lower if it wasn't for the credit and manufacturers were forced to compete without it. They bake it in to all their marketing and I have to assume they are taking advantage of that. I feel the same way about the federal solar system credit - that it is priced into the systems, and when it finally doesn't get renewed, prices will come down.

Prius's eventually came down in price after their credit expired. And now they are priced just the same as regular compact cars. So, I feel the faster we get out from under the credit, the quicker the market will take over and the prices will normalize.

There is no comparable product to the Model 3, an all electric luxury sedan with a range of 200 miles at a base cost of $35,000. Other than the Bolt the cars you mention are not all electric and the Bolt is not a luxury sedan. The 2017 Volt with an electric range of less than 45 has a higher base price of $40-$45k. The Volt and Bolt are not sold in most states and are only available mainly in California and Northeast Corridor. There are non sold within 1000 miles of my location.

My personal opinion is for the first few years they will have more customers than they can produce cars for. This is without doing any advertising and they don't even need to keep an inventory of cars like all other major car manufactures. For the X they don't even have a demo car at their stores. Tesla made 35k cars last year and could double that this year. Tesla plans on making 500k per year but that isn't until 2020.

Every car they produce is an advertisement for the company. With one of the only Model X P90DL's in the area my car gets a lot of attention and makes more people want to own a Tesla.

The base price of $35k for an all electric luxury sedan if anything is low. Based on what I could find if anything the price will go up overtime.

I don't like the EV rebate and other similar programs as there is no evidence to prove they work as intended. Tesla makes such a superior product compared to it's competitors people will buy the car without an incentive. All programs like this do is reduce what is paid in taxes and increases the overall national debt. Ultimately we all pay for this. People say they can just print more money. This is the type of attitude which has got us where we are. I know there are currently customers who will buy three or even four Model 3's. I have no problem if Tesla only lets employees and current customers move up in line for one car each and any additional would be purchased like any other customer.

I doubt if Tesla will do anything to upset its early adopters and current customers or discourage anyone from buying a car. After all they are a car company who's goal is to sell as many cars as they can.