Model X has single 72A charger

[gjunky]

If I remember correctly, tesla uses a stack of 10Kw chargers at each supercharger station to provide the 120Kw charge. Could the new 15Kw charger mean that they are about to upgrade the superchargers again to charge at an even higher rate. 150-170Kw?
Perhaps the liquid cooled charging cables are capable of that already but need new chargers (aren't they really inverters?)
Just a speculation of course.

 

[scaesare]

Perhaps the liquid cooled charging cables are capable of that already but need new chargers (aren't they really inverters?)

Actually they are rectifiers. They rectify AC to DC.

Add in the smarts to talk to the BMS and modulate the current/voltage, etc... and they go from simple "dumb" rectifiers, to "chargers".

 

[gjunky]

I am OK with that.
Still, a stack of 15Kw chargers would be cool. Ludicrous charging.

 

[de704]

If that's #2/3 NM cable, it's not quite to code. #2 is only good to 95A (NEC 334.62), and NEC 210.19(A)(1)(a) requires that 80A charging needs a 100A conductor because of continuous load.

There have been posts on this forum that an occasional inspector has let it by, usually because they don't work with the continuous load rules on a daily basis and because at inspection time you usually don't have the appliances fully installed, so they don't necessary know the details of what's going there. As a result, you might get it green-tagged for connection, but technically it doesn't comply to install the HPWC on that wiring. I assume rough-in inspection has been completed and you're just waiting for finishing?

EDIT: Was surprised the receptacles were mounted so low but I see it sits on a higher concrete sill.

Thanks for the heads up, I double checked with the builder. the cable is definitely an 100amp line (# 2 SER Aluminum).

 

[FlasherZ]

Thanks for the heads up, I double checked with the builder. the cable is definitely an 100amp line (# 2 SER Aluminum).

That's even worse. #2 AL is good only to 90 amps at the 75 degC column (typical residential termination column).

While the conductors are likely rated at 90 degC (which would make it good to 100A), the terminations on breakers and on electrical equipment is limited to 75 degC for typical residential applications, which means a limit of 90A.

 

[PoweredByRain]

Oy. Let's hope Tesla manages to fit at least 20 kW worth of charging into the Model X... it's essential in order to use the Sun Country Highway network, which blankets Canada and the northern border of the US, for road trips.

You're confusing units. Almost every Sun Country Highway higher-power unit is an SCH-90, which means it's on a 90A circuit and nominally provides 72A. In reality they provide 69A. Typically they are on a circuit with a nominal voltage of 208V, which drops to about 200V (or below) when drawing 69A.

200V * 69A = 13.8 kW

That's a LONG way from 20 kW.

If the Model X maxes out at 15 kW, well, it's not usable as a road trip car in Canada. That's something people will have to be warned about.

Again, you're confusing things by referring to the limit in terms of power, whereas it is really limited by current. If it were limited to 15 kW it would make no difference whatsoever, since as I just explained the maximum you will normally see is about 14 kW. In fact a 60A charger will limit power to (usually) 60A * 200V = 12 kW. This will cause charging to take about 16% longer. Really, does 16% longer make that big a difference?

Charging at 200V AC just plain sucks. Sucking 16% worse wouldn't be such a big deal. (Not that I think this rumour is likely to be true, anyway.)

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, I don't deny that there are some true 80A HPWCs and SCH-100s out there. But the original argument had to do with the SCH network, which as I said is mostly SCH-90s; the SCH-100 did not exist when the initial network rolled out.

 

[de704]

That's even worse. #2 AL is good only to 90 amps at the 75 degC column (typical residential termination column).

View attachment 90496

While the conductors are likely rated at 90 degC (which would make it good to 100A), the terminations on breakers and on electrical equipment is limited to 75 degC for typical residential applications, which means a limit of 90A.

Does this really matter? Isn't the HPWC limited to charging at 80amp?

 

[FlasherZ]

Does this really matter? Isn't the HPWC limited to charging at 80amp?

Yes, it matters. EV loads are considered "continuous loads" because they draw full current for a long time - they're not like your range, oven, or dryer that cycles the heating element on and off. Continuous loads require a conductor sized at 125% of the load (NEC 210.19(A)(1)(a)), or 80 * 1.25 = 100A. That's why you need a 100A circuit with 100A breaker for 80A charging, or 50A circuit with 50A breaker for 40A charging, etc.

A lot of electricians who have been working for many years even get it wrong, because they don't deal with continuous loads all the time.

 

[Lyon]

You didn't miss anything. We still don't know.

 

[jomo25]

You didn't miss anything. We still don't know.

Do any of those who have configured already know? Not know? Or not willing to share? or asked not to share?

 

[Lyon]

Do any of those who have configured already know? Not know? Or not willing to share? or asked not to share?

My understanding is that they've asked but have yet to be told. It's a little weird.

 

[ptsagcy]

I sent an email to Tesla, asking about the charging configuration of the MX, so I could plan my charger/power installation. Lo and behold I got a phone call yesterday from Tesla. He asked me not to post his response, and I will honor that request, but he did say that the official answer will be forthcoming from Tesla in the next 2-3 weeks ( after the initial reveal????) So, a little more patience and we should have that piece of the puzzle.

 

[AnOutsider]

I sent an email to Tesla, asking about the charging configuration of the MX, so I could plan my charger/power installation. Lo and behold I got a phone call yesterday from Tesla. He asked me not to post his response, and I will honor that request, but he did say that the official answer will be forthcoming from Tesla in the next 2-3 weeks ( after the initial reveal????) So, a little more patience and we should have that piece of the puzzle.

That's amazing, when I responded to the configure email (which it says you can do for questions) and got nada.

 

[snort]

seems to me that the HPWC is in a little bit of a dead place in the range of products. It's most useful for places you're going to stop for an hour or two--restaurant, rest area, shopping mall, etc. But you can't really take advantage of it unless you're carrying around dual chargers. So most of them are in people's garages, where single charger rates are all that's needed. Without dual chargers, there's little advantage over a level 2 J1772.

What if they're replacing the HPWC with a sort of mini-supercharger: a stack of two or three of the rectifier/chargers from a supercharger and the cord like the one in the HPWC, in a suitable case. It would a lot less site preparation and electrical rigmarole to set it up, which would make it a lot easier for "destinations" to install them than full superchargers, and nobody has to carry around dual chargers to use it. Any supercharger-enabled car can use it. It would expedite the filling-in of the supercharger map: as it stands, there are a lot of places that are only 20kwh or so out of reach--an hour at a mini-supercharger, but two or three at a J1772 or 14-50.

I notice that dual chargers is no longer an option on Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles. am missing something or is this a consequential change?

--Snortybartfast

 

[Trnsl8r]

...

I notice that dual chargers is no longer an option on Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles. am missing something or is this a consequential change?

--Snortybartfast

Still available here as an after-delivery install: Tesla Accessories and Charging Adapters Dual Charger with Installation

 

[jomo25]

I sent an email to Tesla, asking about the charging configuration of the MX, so I could plan my charger/power installation. Lo and behold I got a phone call yesterday from Tesla. He asked me not to post his response, and I will honor that request, but he did say that the official answer will be forthcoming from Tesla in the next 2-3 weeks ( after the initial reveal????) So, a little more patience and we should have that piece of the puzzle.

Interesting. I;m in a similar boat. Actually, I'd say mine is more pressing. I have a Model S, limited to a single charger. But I am #1134 on the MX list, and we will be buying. And I'm limited to 30A charging at my current condo (thanks to PITA HOA). But we just bought a house and close later this month. Since we are all-electric (MS + Leaf), I will definitely need to set up charging at my new place before we can move. I intend to opt for the fastest charging possible for the MX. And I want to set up my garage to match it. So, knowing this is important to me. Guess I'll try writing them also with the same promise not to divulge ahead of any announcements.

 

[PoweredByRain]

seems to me that the HPWC is in a little bit of a dead place in the range of products. It's most useful for places you're going to stop for an hour or two--restaurant, rest area, shopping mall, etc. But you can't really take advantage of it unless you're carrying around dual chargers. So most of them are in people's garages, where single charger rates are all that's needed. Without dual chargers, there's little advantage over a level 2 J1772.

It's less expensive than similar capacity J1772 EVSEs, and about the same price as 40A J1772 EVSEs. It's generally smaller than similar J1772 EVSEs, you don't need an adapter, and you can open the charging door with the button on the handle. It doesn't have to be installed on a 100A circuit for it to be worthwhile. If you intend to plug in only Teslas, why pay more for a J1772 EVSE?

What if they're replacing the HPWC with a sort of mini-supercharger: a stack of two or three of the rectifier/chargers from a supercharger and the cord like the one in the HPWC, in a suitable case. It would a lot less site preparation and electrical rigmarole to set it up, which would make it a lot easier for "destinations" to install them than full superchargers, and nobody has to carry around dual chargers to use it. Any supercharger-enabled car can use it. It would expedite the filling-in of the supercharger map: as it stands, there are a lot of places that are only 20kwh or so out of reach--an hour at a mini-supercharger, but two or three at a J1772 or 14-50.

I notice that dual chargers is no longer an option on Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles. am missing something or is this a consequential change?

--Snortybartfast

The dual chargers haven't been a factory option for a long time. They are installed by service centres now.

Tesla Accessories and Charging Adapters Dual Charger with Installation

The "rectifiers/chargers from a Supercharger" are exactly the same units as are installed in the car, working in parallel. (Which is brilliant engineering, if you ask me.) So I don't understand at all what you're proposing. You're suggesting duplicating the expense of the chargers in the car by putting the same chargers in a box outside the car? Why? The limit is the circuit connecting to that box. It's tough enough finding a 100A 240V circuit in a home, where are you going to find these higher power circuits? Unless you can go to a higher voltage, you are talking about seriously thick wiring to connect to this new mini-Supercharger box.

By contrast an HPWC is essentially an intelligent relay switch. Much, much cheaper.


Love your name, btw. Was it a long trip from Magrathea?

 

[snort]

The "rectifiers/chargers from a Supercharger" are exactly the same units as are installed in the car, working in parallel. (Which is brilliant engineering, if you ask me.) So I don't understand at all what you're proposing. You're suggesting duplicating the expense of the chargers in the car by putting the same chargers in a box outside the car? Why? The limit is the circuit connecting to that box. It's tough enough finding a 100A 240V circuit in a home, where are you going to find these higher power circuits? Unless you can go to a higher voltage, you are talking about seriously thick wiring to connect to this new mini-Supercharger box.

By contrast an HPWC is essentially an intelligent relay switch. Much, much cheaper.

Yes, I know the difference between an EVSE (such as the HPWC) and a charger. Tesla's got a more elegant design, but they aren't trying to make a profit on them like Clipper Creek and Aerovironment and so forth are. They want to use them as a motivation to sell more cars. They want to get as many places to charge as possible. Cheap and simple is one way to do that, but it's not working too well.

there are about 100,000 model Ss and less than 3000 supercharger berths. for home charging, the second charger isn't good for much...it's really only valuable on long trips...the same purpose the superchargers are serving. so a lot of people have made the sensible choice to not install one. consequently, destination HPWCs aren't that valuable at destinations...a hotel or restaurant or whatever might as well install a J1772 and use it to bring in more customers.

BUT, superchargers are expensive and time consuming to install. A bollard with two car-type chargers inside and a big enough cord, which implements a 20kw version of the supercharger protocol, would cost less than $10K to install /including/ the hardware and paying the contractor and electrician. no special permits or inspections needed and any electrician/inspector capable of installing the present HPWC can do it. any car that accepts supercharging can use it. a lot more useful than an HPWC and only a little more expensive. 10-15 of them can be installed for the price of a single supercharger and they're almost as useful. They'd be part of the same supercharger program: the restaurant or mall or whatever wouldn't pay for anything but the parking space; Tesla would pay. Scatter them all over, in places that are unlikely to get superchargers for years to come. More incentive to buy a Tesla.

Love your name, btw. Was it a long trip from Magrathea?

It was, but I'm not allowed to talk about that.

Coincidentally, this is my 42nd post on this forum :biggrin:

-Snortybartfast.

 

[LargeHamCollider]

Looks to me like this rumor is correct.

MX will have one 60A charger.

 

[Saghost]

Looks to me like this rumor is correct.

MX will have one 60A charger.

It still makes no logical sense. Over 90% of the charging opportunities out there are 10 kW/40A or less - and nearly all of the ones with more are 80A capable (in the US/Canada at least.)

A 60A capable charger is mostly wasted cost over a 40A in most situations - and if you want faster charging, it isn't enough.

I'm not really sure what the typical opportunities are like in Europe, but AFAIK the 15 kW rumors haven't said anything about a 3-phase unit for Europe anyway.
Walter