Model X reveal impact on TSLA

[Krugerrand]

can't be happy just knowing you won? Over and out. If you post you may also have the last word. Good by me.

But the pony needs hay and bedding and a saddle and a bridle and a blankie. Do I buy pink or blue accessories? What size cart should I get? Does it need shoes? Think of the pony as a Sig Model X. :biggrin:

 

[Ocelot]

Let me give you another perspective so you might be able to understand that not everyone thinks as you do. Some people, such as yourself, appreciate periodic updates even if those updates contain zero information. Hi, nothing new to report, blah, blah blah, bye.

But there is another group of people (like engineering types, but not exclusively) who simply wouldn't think there was a need to tell people - even periodically - that there's nothing new to tell them. It just doesn't register on their radar to do something that appears to have no value from where they are sitting.

This is not to suggest that you're pov isn't valid, this is just to make you aware that not everyone thinks the same way on this front. We've known that there's been some revolving door stuff going on in the communications area with Tesla for a couple of years now. We can make some educated guesses as to why this has been an issue from the start and continues to be, and we need look no further than the top of the food chain and consider what kind of person he is, what he believes to have significant value and what does not, his managing style and so on.

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I believe he's publically acknowledged is over zealous timelines. It's a personal fault and he's aware of it. But like all of us, some habits die hard. I can live with it because he has so much else to offer that I view it as an annoyance more than anything. I've learned to recalibrate timelines, as have many others here.

There have been consequences of missed deadlines and will continue to be, but in the scheme of things, looking to where the puck is going to be rather than where it currently is - there are bigger fish to fry than missed deadlines. And you shouldn't apologize for someone else's mistake/s, that's not your responsibility. :wink:

Thanks krugerrand...now I know not everyone thinks like me:wink: I get what you are saying ...but respectfully disagree.

 

[Yggdrasill]

No, it's not really okay for someone to think an answer being given that they don't like is somehow the definition poor communication.

Poor communication is when the message is garbled or ambiguous. Definitely not the case here. Poor communication is when the receiver of the information isn't listening, is judgmental or filters the message through their pov. Poor communication is when either party is overly emotional. Poor communication is when the sender of the information attacks the receiver.

If the seats form a flat floor, in spite of what sales people have been saying, and in spite of information given at the Model X launch as well as subseuent updates, that's poor communication. So, I wouldn't rule it out at this point.

If the seats don't form a flat floor, Tesla has been communicating this to those who it matters to, so there's no poor communication. But on the other hand, Tesla will have failed to deliver a car with the expected utility.

I don't yet know in which way Tesla has dropped the ball, but we should know at the end of the month, or shortly thereafter.

 

[Krugerrand]

Thanks krugerrand...now I know not everyone thinks like me���� I get what you are saying ...but respectfully disagree.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. I thought I wrote my response to your communication concern is a pretty decent sitting on the fence kind of a way, taking neither side of the issue. I acknowledged your pov as valid, just explained that what is obvious to you in terms of communication may not be on someone else's radar. That's a fact of life and how different people think differently. Or do you believe those at Tesla responsible for communication are fully aware of how each customer prefers to be communicated with? Or are purposely trying to upset people? Or that Elon isn't in fact where communication trends start?

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If the seats form a flat floor, in spite of what sales people have been saying, and in spite of information given at the Model X launch as well as subseuent updates, that's poor communication. So, I wouldn't rule it out at this point.

Yes, that's would be a form of poor communication. That (folding seats specifically) wasn't what was being talked about as poor communication.

If the seats don't form a flat floor, Tesla has been communicating this to those who it matters to, so there's no poor communication. But on the other hand, Tesla will have failed to deliver a car with the expected utility.

That's a debatable point, in that each person who reserved has a different view of what they are expecting in terms of utility. There are some who were expecting the seats to fold flat and need those seats to fold flat to use the vehicle as they intend to, and then there are some who outright don't care what the seats do, and still some others who are fine with whatever the seats may or may not do as long as there's still a certain amount of cargo space behind those seats, and some others who fall in between those categories and so on.

 

[Yggdrasill]

That's a debatable point, in that each person who reserved has a different view of what they are expecting in terms of utility. There are some who were expecting the seats to fold flat and need those seats to fold flat to use the vehicle as they intend to, and then there are some who outright don't care what the seats do, and still some others who are fine with whatever the seats may or may not do as long as there's still a certain amount of cargo space behind those seats, and some others who fall in between those categories and so on.

True, but you need to draw a line between significant and insignificant changes. I would say that if a change is big enough to get many people to cancel their reservations, it's significant.

It's like if Tesla decided to make the Model X a plug-in hybrid instead, with 30 miles electric range. Some people wouldn't care, many people would be outraged, and many would be somewhere in between. Even so, I would consider this a significant change, and I would think Tesla had failed to deliver the expected vehicle. In my view, non-folding seats is a significant change.

 

[RobStark]

True, but you need to draw a line between significant and insignificant changes. I would say that if a change is big enough to get many people to cancel their reservations, it's significant.

It's like if Tesla decided to make the Model X a plug-in hybrid instead, with 30 miles electric range. Some people wouldn't care, many people would be outraged, and many would be somewhere in between. Even so, I would consider this a significant change, and I would think Tesla had failed to deliver the expected vehicle. In my view, non-folding seats is a significant change.

An all-electric powertrain and the transition to sustainable transportation is Tesla's raison d'être. Folding seats are not. Neither are heated ventilated cooled seats. Or any freaking seat.

A PHEV with 30 miles AER would have 95% plus reservation holders cancelling.

A few people are all about the internet of things and trendy brands but most Tesla owners and reservation holders are not.

And a few Volvo XC90 and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV intenders would switch.

Most would not because Tesla would have no track record with ICE powertrains.

 

[Yggdrasill]

An all-electric powertrain and the transition to sustainable transportation is Tesla's raison d'être. Folding seats are not. Neither are heated ventilated cooled seats. Or any freaking seat.

A PHEV with 30 miles AER would have 95% plus reservation holders cancelling.

A few people are all about the internet of things and trendy brands but most Tesla owners and reservation holders are not.

And a few Volvo XC90 and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV intenders would switch.

Most would not because Tesla would have no track record with ICE powertrains.

What percentage of reservation holders would need to cancel based on a design change before you would say that Tesla failed to deliver what was expected?

 

[JRP3]

Again, this is based on information provided by a reservation holder who asked specific questions to the North American sales team (reference: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...e-second-row-seats-fold-flat-If-so-how/page26).

Actually all that was said is the seats don't fold flat. That does not mean they don't move out of the way in some other manner to provide similar useful space. It's an important distinction.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Actually all that was said is the seats don't fold flat. That does not mean they don't move out of the way in some other manner to provide similar useful space. It's an important distinction.

"Spoke to a Tesla rep yesterday. He confirmed that the 2nd row does not fold, rotate or transform in any way to make a flag cargo space. The 3rd row seats however do fold flat." First Production Cars Delivered Sep 29 at Factory per Elon Tweet - Page 4
"I spoke with the Tesla inside sales folks today about my X order and they also me that the second row seats do not fold flat or fold in any way or twist or move in any fashion to become flat." Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 39

The above is a pretty strong indication that minimally, the Signature 2nd row seats do not form a flat floor. The alternative is that vandacca and MrBoylan or Tesla staff were mistaken or lying.

"I know there is/was some speculation that the Production models may give you another option for the second row seats that might allow folding. Based on a lengthy conversation with the NASales team yesterday this is NOT the case. No folding second row seats..period Sig or Production." Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 25

The above is a pretty strong indication that just like the Signature 2nd row, the standard 2nd row does not form a flat floor. The alternative is that the standard seats are superior to the Signature seats, in that they too don't fold, but magically stow somehow. Or that AlMc or Tesla staff are mistaken or lying.

 

[JRP3]

They don't have to fold to form a perfectly flat floor to still provide good utility. If they move mostly out of the way that would be plenty for most people. Frankly I think most people never do anything with the folding seats in most vehicles, but I do realize some want more utility.

 

[Yggdrasill]

They don't have to fold to form a perfectly flat floor to still provide good utility. If they move mostly out of the way that would be plenty for most people. Frankly I think most people never do anything with the folding seats in most vehicles, but I do realize some want more utility.

"Most vehicles"? Maybe... Most utility vehicles (CUV/SUV/wagon)? Probably most people use the folding seats to some degree or other.

The seats will probably move a bit forward and then tilt forward to some degree. For some people that will be enough, but I doubt it's good enough for me. I will of course have to see the actual implementation.

 

[Krugerrand]

True, but you need to draw a line between significant and insignificant changes. I would say that if a change is big enough to get many people to cancel their reservations, it's significant.

Okay, but we have no idea if the seat change is indeed significant enough to cause many people to cancel their reservation. (And what is many anyway?) A handful of people have indicated it's a deal breaker and a handful of people are speculating it's (the seat change) a big (or to use your word, significant) change. Personally, (and what I think personally is irrelevant because I'm not a premium SUV customer in this life time) my initial reaction was 'oh, no, they didn't!' and I expected way, way, way more backlash about it then what I've actually seen. I expected backlash far exceeding the AP and HP threads combined. But so far that hasn't happened even fractionally. So now I'm personally thinking it might very well end up not being that big of a deal for the majority.

It's like if Tesla decided to make the Model X a plug-in hybrid instead, with 30 miles electric range. Some people wouldn't care, many people would be outraged, and many would be somewhere in between. Even so, I would consider this a significant change, and I would think Tesla had failed to deliver the expected vehicle. In my view, non-folding seats is a significant change.

Non-flat folding seats vs plug-in hybrid with 30 electric range miles is very lopsided and really not on the same planet in context, imo.

 

[austinEV]

I wanted to see like 3 more pages of Almc and Krugerrand discussing the pony. The meta is strong here.

 

[Krugerrand]

"Most vehicles"? Maybe... Most utility vehicles (CUV/SUV/wagon)? Probably most people use the folding seats to some degree or other.

I think you're letting your personal experience cloud the larger real world. This is sounding a lot like the whole range argument - probably most people have a time or two in their lives to go 500 miles, therefore BEVs must have 500 mile range batteries, which ignores the reality that truly most people don't need that and for the odd occasion when they do, they have other options.

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I wanted to see like 3 more pages of Almc and Krugerrand discussing the pony. The meta is strong here.

I'm ready, willing and able, but I don't think AIMc wants to play. :frown:

 

[dalalsid]

I think you're letting your personal experience cloud the larger real world. This is sounding a lot like the whole range argument - probably most people have a time or two in their lives to go 500 miles, therefore BEVs must have 500 mile range batteries, which ignores the reality that truly most people don't need that and for the odd occasion when they do, they have other options.

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I'm ready, willing and able, but I don't think AIMc wants to play. :frown:

Maybe this needs a poll about how often people fold their second row seats. I say I do it once a month or so for partial folding once a quarter or so for all folded. I'm fairly certain folding seat events far outnumber driving far events.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Okay, but we have no idea if the seat change is indeed significant enough to cause many people to cancel their reservation. (And what is many anyway?) A handful of people have indicated it's a deal breaker and a handful of people are speculating it's (the seat change) a big (or to use your word, significant) change. Personally, (and what I think personally is irrelevant because I'm not a premium SUV customer in this life time) my initial reaction was 'oh, no, they didn't!' and I expected way, way, way more backlash about it then what I've actually seen. I expected backlash far exceeding the AP and HP threads combined. But so far that hasn't happened even fractionally. So now I'm personally thinking it might very well end up not being that big of a deal for the majority.

You won't see more backlash until more firm info is available. Right now it's a strong suspicion that the Model X will have inconvenient cargo solutions, nothing more.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I made a poll, so let's see then: How important is it for you that the 2nd row seats of the Model X are stowable?

 

[Yggdrasill]

Apparently, I may have been optimistic when I estimated 25% cancellation rate, if the seats don't fold or stow in some way. It makes complete sense, of course. Being in the premium/luxury segment does not exempt the car company from meeting the basic needs of the customer.

(The sample size is of course not huge, and there is probably some selection bias involved, as well as various other factors that skew the poll.)

 

[aesculus]

Apparently, I may have been optimistic when I estimated 25% cancellation rate, if the seats don't fold or stow in some way. It makes complete sense, of course. Being in the premium/luxury segment does not exempt the car company from meeting the basic needs of the customer.

(The sample size is of course not huge, and there is probably some selection bias involved, as well as various other factors that skew the poll.)

Not sure what you mean by being optimistic but at this time its over 60% that require the seats adapting, with almost 40% stating they must be flat.

I agree that the numbers are still small (~60) and all could change.

 

[Krugerrand]

You won't see more backlash until more firm info is available. Right now it's a strong suspicion that the Model X will have inconvenient cargo solutions, nothing more.

We'll see, but I don't think so.