Here is one for the record - insane, crazy science teacher.
US town rejects solar farm amid worries it would "suck up all the energy from the Sun"
US town rejects solar farm amid worries it would "suck up all the energy from the Sun"
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More anti-Solar shenanigans :(
- Thread starter nwdiver
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- Energy Environment Policy
Jemez Electric has formally replied to the complaint that Rate 3 is not in compliance with Rule 570.... with a novel. I can't link to the files due to the way that the PRC posts them but they're an interesting read so I've attached them. I think this is a critically important case which could potentially set a precedent in NM. Electric co-ops cover 85% of NM (by area)... the co-op association is essentially telling the PRC that they don't have jurisdiction in their service territory.
Homeowners planning a solar install are usually faced with a choice that must be made NOW and will have both costs and consequences: to buy OFF-grid or ON-grid equipment. The controller is either one or the other unless someone is now making equipment that can be hooked up both ways. That would be awesome! In addition there is expensive isolation/safety stuff the power co installs at your meter if you remain connected to the grid. Faced with these options let us guess which way the homeowner goes.
Better choice might be to order an off-grid solar installation from day one and dedicate it to only a portion of your electric needs. You would have to physically disconnect these chosen loads from the main breaker box and isolate them to the solar installation. So you would become as small a Power Co customer as possible until you are able someday to go completely off grid.
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Better choice might be to order an off-grid solar installation from day one and dedicate it to only a portion of your electric needs. You would have to physically disconnect these chosen loads from the main breaker box and isolate them to the solar installation. So you would become as small a Power Co customer as possible until you are able someday to go completely off grid.
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This is available from Solar Edge now... Fronius will also have grid-tied & off-grid inverters next year.
What's going to be interesting... is that with the fixed fee that many utilities appear to think is appropriate for a typical home ~$50/mo even if you NEVER import or export. It's cheaper to buy a ~10kW generator to fill in the few gaps your PV system can't cover and divorce yourself from the grid. The next 10 years are going to be very interesting...
So
1. Mini Grid
2. Grid Tied
3. Grid Zero
4. Support
5. Backup
6. UPS
7. Generator
If you want to configure it so that it is impossible to feed power into the grid, you can do that. At the same time, when the batteries get low for any reason, you can automatically charge them from the grid, or a backup generator. They announced last year that they were working on a new generation product that would accommodate HVDC battery banks (current ones are 48VDC nominal ~60VDC max) but they are taking their time to get it right. I don't think they plan to be compatible with PowerWalls that use internal DC/DC converters. I talked to one of their guys at the solar show in SF this summer. We talked about using EV packs and once I made it clear I was interested in using intact salvage packs he understood where I was coming from and why I was interested in their future product over the current one. The other different feature the new models will have is integrated solar string input. Today, you have to use independent charge controllers to put the renewable energy into the battery pack.
Inverters like the Outback Radian are very flexible and can be completely off-grid or blend a grid connection and batteries in different ways. It has seven different operating modes. They are:
1. Mini Grid
2. Grid Tied
3. Grid Zero
4. Support
5. Backup
6. UPS
7. Generator
If you want to configure it so that it is impossible to feed power into the grid, you can do that. At the same time, when the batteries get low for any reason, you can automatically charge them from the grid, or a backup generator. They announced last year that they were working on a new generation product that would accommodate HVDC battery banks (current ones are 48VDC nominal ~60VDC max) but they are taking their time to get it right. I don't think they plan to be compatible with PowerWalls that use internal DC/DC converters. I talked to one of their guys at the solar show in SF this summer. We talked about using EV packs and once I made it clear I was interested in using intact salvage packs he understood where I was coming from and why I was interested in their future product over the current one. The other different feature the new models will have is integrated solar string input. Today, you have to use independent charge controllers to put the renewable energy into the battery pack.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
If I read their rate case correctly, for the affected customers, they'll get ~$.03 credit for every kwh they produce, and they will pay $.06 for every kwh they use. The electric coop gets their same $.03 net for every kwh somebody uses. This does leave some incentive to building a system - it's worth $.03 for every kwh it produces.
The gotcha in my book is that it's not $.03 for the exported kwh, and $.06 for the imported kwh (meaning that internally produced and consumed kwh are effectively worth $.06 to the owner of the DG system).
I see the logic, but it's rooted in a fundamental belief and strategy of maintaining and growing the size of the cooperative. It looks to me like it's rate cases like this that are going to encourage users to leave the grid, or to modify their system so that they are really small power users (by having import only grid ties with local production and storage of power designed to offset much or most of their actual usage).
Sidebar - gotta love $.06/kwh for electricity. I realize these are Large Power users and not a retail rate, but that's still an awfully good price for electricity.
The gotcha in my book is that it's not $.03 for the exported kwh, and $.06 for the imported kwh (meaning that internally produced and consumed kwh are effectively worth $.06 to the owner of the DG system).
I see the logic, but it's rooted in a fundamental belief and strategy of maintaining and growing the size of the cooperative. It looks to me like it's rate cases like this that are going to encourage users to leave the grid, or to modify their system so that they are really small power users (by having import only grid ties with local production and storage of power designed to offset much or most of their actual usage).
Sidebar - gotta love $.06/kwh for electricity. I realize these are Large Power users and not a retail rate, but that's still an awfully good price for electricity.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
New house we're moving to this fall - I'm starting to think about this very issue. My first pass thinking (and entirely unsized or tested as to practicality), is to arrange a semi-off grid / backup setup, with the various 220 services on the main panel, and the 110 services on a sub panel with battery backup and the solar array.
My general thinking (and I'm not an electrician, so you know - an actual expert will need to get involved to help me figure out the details
), is that solar plus backup will run the 110 services in the event of a power outage, and can even provide some minor level of car charging if needed (via 110 outlet). I expect this would be a manual cutover as many backup generator systems rely on, so everything would go out when the grid goes down - then we'd cutover to bring the 110's back up.Mostly, I figure with the right backup power, the pellet stoves will operate (they use electricity for the augurs and internal fans), and that heat will keep the house warm and might be usable to warm water or even cook (totally untested). But the basic premise is power is out, the house is at the end of a string that is a long ways from anywhere, so some ability to "camp" at home will make that easy. Now if only it'll price out to a reasonable level in the next year or two ...
If you're already planning to install solar and a backup generator, the budget to do a GridZero (full time power from solar and batteries until the batteries are low, then charge from grid) system basically comes down to the price of the batteries. Large AGM batteries are as little as $200/kWh. So, you need to figure out how much peak power you need for inverter sizing and how long you want to be able to run on batteries when the grid is down. BTW, most of the reasonably sized off-grid inverters are 120/240, so they can power normal electrical panels with any mix of 120 and 240 volt appliances.
>> are not going to be able to afford this in the future <<
Key issue is that you can afford solar without full net-metering. The price of Solar PV installed per-watt has fallen from $5 and higher per Watt to below $3 in five years. The Federal ITC is still there to remove 30% of the costs as well. That may take an install down to $2/watt. At these prices, wholesale "gross metering" is an acceptable market change. I knew going in when I bought my system in late 2012 that SREC sales were falling fast, that net metering could go away and yet - purchased the system. Even with a falling per-kWh price from my grid provider. Some larger institutions such as schools can get extra grants to help pay for systems.
It slows installations but people who want solar for many of the reasons we all bought it - can still afford it without permanent net-metering. I think the arguments are too strong from the advocates saying that "many won't be able to afford solar". The drop in cost per-watt to install has been enormous. Thanks in part to deep discounting of input parts (Chinese or otherwise).
Argument does come with "not everyone can get the full ITC". Isn't it one that can be rolled over from year to year on someone's taxes if the full amount is not possible in year-1? Unlike EVs, I thought that solar PV was fully capturable. Also, on a large scale, commercial sized solar installs are possibly .50 to $1 per watt cheaper than individual home installs and can be oriented perfectly for most yield while some home installs are not always geared to perfect yield. Some installers do East and West , sometimes shaded, over-sized home systems just to get more nameplate capacity installed (perhaps to sell as a fully-yielding solar bond based on nameplate capacity).
Key issue is that you can afford solar without full net-metering. The price of Solar PV installed per-watt has fallen from $5 and higher per Watt to below $3 in five years. The Federal ITC is still there to remove 30% of the costs as well. That may take an install down to $2/watt. At these prices, wholesale "gross metering" is an acceptable market change. I knew going in when I bought my system in late 2012 that SREC sales were falling fast, that net metering could go away and yet - purchased the system. Even with a falling per-kWh price from my grid provider. Some larger institutions such as schools can get extra grants to help pay for systems.
It slows installations but people who want solar for many of the reasons we all bought it - can still afford it without permanent net-metering. I think the arguments are too strong from the advocates saying that "many won't be able to afford solar". The drop in cost per-watt to install has been enormous. Thanks in part to deep discounting of input parts (Chinese or otherwise).
Argument does come with "not everyone can get the full ITC". Isn't it one that can be rolled over from year to year on someone's taxes if the full amount is not possible in year-1? Unlike EVs, I thought that solar PV was fully capturable. Also, on a large scale, commercial sized solar installs are possibly .50 to $1 per watt cheaper than individual home installs and can be oriented perfectly for most yield while some home installs are not always geared to perfect yield. Some installers do East and West , sometimes shaded, over-sized home systems just to get more nameplate capacity installed (perhaps to sell as a fully-yielding solar bond based on nameplate capacity).
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TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
All of that is true IF you can get a decent install at a reasonable markup. That's not easy for the everyday consumer.
In my area we have net metering to 100%, and then you get $.08/kWh on anything else produced. People were howling about that, but it's actually pretty good compensation even without any state subsidy. With just the 30% tax credit, you'd still be saving money even if all your juice pushed to the grid were bought for $.08/kWh, so long as you have a properly priced and sized array.
The hardware is there, the solution is within reach, it's just not attainable by the average consumer in most markets due to a myriad of reasons.
In my area we have net metering to 100%, and then you get $.08/kWh on anything else produced. People were howling about that, but it's actually pretty good compensation even without any state subsidy. With just the 30% tax credit, you'd still be saving money even if all your juice pushed to the grid were bought for $.08/kWh, so long as you have a properly priced and sized array.
The hardware is there, the solution is within reach, it's just not attainable by the average consumer in most markets due to a myriad of reasons.
People want ROI of under 10 years, but that honestly is great return. 10% annual return is hard to come by in most markets. Looking at Philadelphia, that's the PECO company, right? Residential rates are about 14-15 cents per kWh delivered. net metering is good and if you overproduce - the .08 is basically "gravy", because you really shouldn't produce more than you use without some degree becoming a "grid generator" versus a consumer of electricity. Most wholesale electricity is on the market between 3-4 cents per kWh. 8 is far better than 3.5...
I know a guy who is doing solar because he really wants solar. He is installing himself and priced out modules, inverters, etc. He has a problem. Big trees that he cannot cut down. He is still doing it. People will pay for solar - but not always making economically good decisions.
If every house could install 1kW of Solar using microinverters or a small SMA inverter, nationally, it would be a really good thing. Such an install should be under $2k these days (no need for dual-flow metering but still needs permits and other labor), would generate over 1 MWh a year and in the Phila area, that is about $150 in savings. So, payback is ... 15 years for a tiny system. The sales folks selling solar always say "but the grid prices will go up more than 2.9% a year so sign for an annual up-charge..." - turns out though that the grid does not go up that much except in tighter markets like CA, HI and other. How does someone sell something to a common consumer who doesn't understand 10-15 year ROI? Especially when incentives used to make it look "great" at under 8-year ROI. The common consumer always goes for 30-year mortgages even though a 15-year is FAR more economical for most families... Forget about all their re-financing and that takes 30-year mortgages out sometimes to 40-years. No wonder people are retiring with mortgages still being paid. I've done the HELOC thing, re-financed once and did so with a 15-year. If I had done that to start, would have been mortgage free almost 5 years ago. I'm paying my stupid tax right now.
Best time to install solar is during home construction. That's when it gets the most traction - when you can blend it into the house itself, embed in a mortgage and then make it less "mentally painful".
I know a guy who is doing solar because he really wants solar. He is installing himself and priced out modules, inverters, etc. He has a problem. Big trees that he cannot cut down. He is still doing it. People will pay for solar - but not always making economically good decisions.
If every house could install 1kW of Solar using microinverters or a small SMA inverter, nationally, it would be a really good thing. Such an install should be under $2k these days (no need for dual-flow metering but still needs permits and other labor), would generate over 1 MWh a year and in the Phila area, that is about $150 in savings. So, payback is ... 15 years for a tiny system. The sales folks selling solar always say "but the grid prices will go up more than 2.9% a year so sign for an annual up-charge..." - turns out though that the grid does not go up that much except in tighter markets like CA, HI and other. How does someone sell something to a common consumer who doesn't understand 10-15 year ROI? Especially when incentives used to make it look "great" at under 8-year ROI. The common consumer always goes for 30-year mortgages even though a 15-year is FAR more economical for most families... Forget about all their re-financing and that takes 30-year mortgages out sometimes to 40-years. No wonder people are retiring with mortgages still being paid. I've done the HELOC thing, re-financed once and did so with a 15-year. If I had done that to start, would have been mortgage free almost 5 years ago. I'm paying my stupid tax right now.
Best time to install solar is during home construction. That's when it gets the most traction - when you can blend it into the house itself, embed in a mortgage and then make it less "mentally painful".
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TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
That's my concern with residential trends these days. Purchasing is without a doubt the best way to go, certainly for anyone with cash or easy HELOC options, but a huge majority of the market either doesn't have the cash/HELOC or doesn't care enough to go through the effort.
I think we need to focus on some very simple federal level regulation to make the conversation a bit easier for consumers. Clearly the uncertainty is translating into huge amounts of sales cost and hindering market growth everywhere. Someone needs to negotiate a deal with Perry/Trump and slip in a few FERC rules for grandfathering net metering, etc. A residential solar buyer's bill of rights to make the math simpler.
I think we need to focus on some very simple federal level regulation to make the conversation a bit easier for consumers. Clearly the uncertainty is translating into huge amounts of sales cost and hindering market growth everywhere. Someone needs to negotiate a deal with Perry/Trump and slip in a few FERC rules for grandfathering net metering, etc. A residential solar buyer's bill of rights to make the math simpler.
There are many reasons to "want" solar. I want my local Walmart to install solar on their entire roof so they have less impact on the local grid during daylight hours - but in my state, that isn't happening. If they could do 1MW on the roof, that is about 1.2GWh per year produced.
A homeowner may want to save money - and they would if they could use present value cash to buy a $2.10/Watt installed system that also looked good and they had a proper facing roof to make it work. But are they saving money, being green, powering their new EV, or some combination of that? it's hard to tell. It is "chic" in California to have both Solar and EV. But in Kansas? Missouri? Not so much.
And yet, in some of the dirtiest power states, the lack of interest by citizens is clear. Even if they saved money, some don't want to mess with the loans needed to buy, or pay the 2.9% annual uplift on a contract or whatnot. However, they will take the family to Disney World and spend $4500 for a week vacation which, while it does create memories, ends up having them paying 15% in credit card revolving fees for those memories.
Should it be "government to the rescue"? If so, why not have the government blanket many MWs of solar on federal lands and feed into the grid. We go greener on a grand scale without having to involve many layers of jobs-programs to put small solar on residential roofs. I'm all for grand-scale solar that is managed well since cost-of-scale lowers the start-up costs and skips over various areas of abuse including abuse by a local municipality for a permit. I had to pay $250 for my solar pv permit based on the square footage of the array. What the heck is that all about? Because the municipality needs fees to pay for an electrician to come by for 10 minutes to look over the final install. Size doesn't matter in that case - whether 1 module or 32. But they arbitrarily charge by the square foot. I have been intending to go to a local meeting of the township to argue for fee-abatement for solar array installs to help keep costs down. What happened after this electrician signed off on my system? Crazy as it may sound - I got water in my basement. What happened? There was a consolidator box that wires were put in to tie the solar array to the grid power. This box had no water weep holes and a top that allowed rain in. Water collected, ran down my 200A feed line and ACROSS MY Circuit Breakers - onto the floor. Electrician didn't know to inspect for such water issues (and the installer installed a new circuit breaker service for me once this was discovered). Dry basement now.
I've gone through headaches with my solar array in the four years of ownership. The common consumer doesn't want all this. They want the power coming in from the grid to be reliable and cost effective. Today, natural gas has helped make this a general reality. However, LED use, conservation and other aspects of cutting demand also is part of the big picture. Home lighting in some of the homes I've visited is pretty expansive. Couple guys I know spend $500+ a month on electricity. LED replacement of halogen and incandescent bulbs can save a homeowner $100 or more per month in a larger home. That is actually preferred before purchasing a solar array. Take it to the next level, if a university campus can outfit full replacement of all its lighting with LED - think of the larger impact of that type of activity. Lighting is very effective in the evening - which is peak-demand period in California during warm/hot summers. Cooler lighting also lowers AC summertime load.
I am always an advocate of conservation first, simple technology second and large-scale technology third in cutting resources.
End of day rant - sorry for so much writing but I don't know where Solar PV goes in terms of the homeowner longer-term, especially with the ITC run-out by 2022. But if we want renewables, we may want to focus on large-scale implementations as the most cost-effective measures.
A homeowner may want to save money - and they would if they could use present value cash to buy a $2.10/Watt installed system that also looked good and they had a proper facing roof to make it work. But are they saving money, being green, powering their new EV, or some combination of that? it's hard to tell. It is "chic" in California to have both Solar and EV. But in Kansas? Missouri? Not so much.
And yet, in some of the dirtiest power states, the lack of interest by citizens is clear. Even if they saved money, some don't want to mess with the loans needed to buy, or pay the 2.9% annual uplift on a contract or whatnot. However, they will take the family to Disney World and spend $4500 for a week vacation which, while it does create memories, ends up having them paying 15% in credit card revolving fees for those memories.
Should it be "government to the rescue"? If so, why not have the government blanket many MWs of solar on federal lands and feed into the grid. We go greener on a grand scale without having to involve many layers of jobs-programs to put small solar on residential roofs. I'm all for grand-scale solar that is managed well since cost-of-scale lowers the start-up costs and skips over various areas of abuse including abuse by a local municipality for a permit. I had to pay $250 for my solar pv permit based on the square footage of the array. What the heck is that all about? Because the municipality needs fees to pay for an electrician to come by for 10 minutes to look over the final install. Size doesn't matter in that case - whether 1 module or 32. But they arbitrarily charge by the square foot. I have been intending to go to a local meeting of the township to argue for fee-abatement for solar array installs to help keep costs down. What happened after this electrician signed off on my system? Crazy as it may sound - I got water in my basement. What happened? There was a consolidator box that wires were put in to tie the solar array to the grid power. This box had no water weep holes and a top that allowed rain in. Water collected, ran down my 200A feed line and ACROSS MY Circuit Breakers - onto the floor. Electrician didn't know to inspect for such water issues (and the installer installed a new circuit breaker service for me once this was discovered). Dry basement now.
I've gone through headaches with my solar array in the four years of ownership. The common consumer doesn't want all this. They want the power coming in from the grid to be reliable and cost effective. Today, natural gas has helped make this a general reality. However, LED use, conservation and other aspects of cutting demand also is part of the big picture. Home lighting in some of the homes I've visited is pretty expansive. Couple guys I know spend $500+ a month on electricity. LED replacement of halogen and incandescent bulbs can save a homeowner $100 or more per month in a larger home. That is actually preferred before purchasing a solar array. Take it to the next level, if a university campus can outfit full replacement of all its lighting with LED - think of the larger impact of that type of activity. Lighting is very effective in the evening - which is peak-demand period in California during warm/hot summers. Cooler lighting also lowers AC summertime load.
I am always an advocate of conservation first, simple technology second and large-scale technology third in cutting resources.
End of day rant - sorry for so much writing but I don't know where Solar PV goes in terms of the homeowner longer-term, especially with the ITC run-out by 2022. But if we want renewables, we may want to focus on large-scale implementations as the most cost-effective measures.
brucet999
Active Member
If you charge your EVs during sunlight hours, then you only get to drive them at night?
gavine
Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast
If you charge your EVs during sunlight hours, then you only get to drive them at night?
How many hours per day do you need to drive? There are more hours of daylight in a day than the hours that you typically drive....at least I hope.
Cost-effective for whom? If I invest in solar, I get the ROI; if some power company does, it (and its stockholders) do. Plus I get far more reliable electric service. I have lost power for a week at a time, even a solar-only stand-alone system is a huge improvement on that.
Thank you kindly.
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