Move Over Tesla. Here Comes Cadillac.

[AnxietyRanger]

Release Notes saying something like Autopilot is restricted to 35 MPH might be here today on your 17" screen display but it can also disappear by tomorrow.

However, on that same 17" screen display, its latest owner's manual is there to be read. And that what counts!

Yeah, well, I guess that's the argument - what exactly counts? Is the totality such that a reasonable person reasonably understands Autopilot is not to be used on non-highway streets.

In any case, @croman for example seems to be of the opinion proper use of Autopilot includes surface streets at low speeds. Do you consider that proper use? Does Tesla? What is the reasonable interpretation by a reasonable average person...

I don't dispute what stands in the manual. Indeed that is how I use Autopilot and that's probably one reason why the blue car has not appeared to me on AP2 prior...

 

[Tam]

By the way, Deutsche Bank expects that GM "autonomous vehicles will be ready for commercial deployment, without human drivers, much sooner than widely expected (within quarters, not years)."

DEUTSCHE BANK: GM could release a self driving car 'within quarters, not years' (GM)

My take is: Talk is easy for today but commercial proof is still waiting!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

My take is: Talk is easy for today but commercial proof is still waiting!

My problem is that on TMC too often that is the attitude when others talk, but not when Tesla talks.

I agree we don't know who gets there first, but when it comes to autonomous, it is not Tesla who has had the most robust known research programs and public proofs out there on autonomous.

 

[Tam]

...What is the reasonable interpretation by a reasonable average person...

Like GM Super Cruise, Autopilot is not to be used on local streets.

GM enforces that adherence to the design by shutting down Super Cruise when your freeway becomes a high speed highway with intersections (the same kind in Autopilot fatal accident in Florida).

It thinks it is improper to use outside of its designation.

And that's why I like Tesla because it gives the drivers the freedom to choose: Adhere to the design so I can live or use it against the design and I may die on the Florida highway with intersections..

Tesla gives owners warnings on its Owner's Manual but it does not disable it if drivers use Autopilot against its design.

Live or die, that's my choice!

Tesla would educate owners and equip them with its owner's manual so they can do either way.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Fair enough, your view is clear.

Indeed it seems the blue car never appears when Autopilot is used properly.

Tesla would educate owners and equip them with its owner's manual so they can do either way.

Would you be against this being noted in the Release Notes "Do not use this feature" manner? I mean, if you are correct, it would make sense to do so.

 

[Tam]

Would you be against this being noted in the Release Notes "Do not use this feature" manner? I mean, if you are correct, it would make sense to do so.

Owner's Manual has always instructed owners on how to use Autopilot on city streets even when it warns against doing so!

It would be clearer if a release note would repeat what Owner's Manual says "hands-on feature" and "Do not use on city streets..."

When it skipped the warning but only instructed on how to use Autopilot on city streets, owners can mis-interpret that Autopilot is now designed for that purpose.

But that's old story! Owners can misinterpret the release notes when they were hanging around during that time and people ignored looking at the Owner's Manual.

However, as soon as those release notes disappear, the on-screen Owner's Manual takes over.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It would be clearer if a release note would repeat what Owner's Manual says "hands-on feature" and "Do not use on city streets..."

Agreed on that, I think we can call it a day there.

 

[Tam]

My problem is that on TMC too often that is the attitude when others talk, but not when Tesla talks.

There's no question that historically, Tesla's timeline can be way off but at least they have tried.

For example, when they said owners could drive across USA with Superchargers. The timing might be off but eventually that has happened.

Same with Full Self-driving: At least they got all the sensors installed on present cars and it's a matter of waiting to see whether that will ever work or not!

No other car companies has a final design for sensor installation for their autonomous vehicles just yet.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I do acknowledge Tesla has a different approach than the rest of the industry on autonomous (shipping a platform early and having a comprehensive OTA software update strategy and capability). I also acknowledge Tesla's groundbreaking, world changing role in BEVs (Supercharger network included).

That doesn't automatically translate to a leadership position on autonomous, though...

No other car companies has a final design for sensor installation for their autonomous vehicles just yet.

To be honest, we don't know if Tesla does either. HW2.5 already has differences in the hardware compared to HW2 (new radar, new wiring, new chips, new interior camera in Model 3) - and we're far away from seeing if this current suite will be approved for autonomous use or resemble Tesla's eventual autonomous suite they are shipping when the software is shipping...

Tesla has an installation in production and possible some others in labs. Other manfacturers definitely have other installations in their labs and even on public roads... just in recent days the Nissan video of 5 radar, 4 lidar, 8 camera suite has been circulating TMC, for example. Google, of course, famously doing their thing for years now...

We shall see.

 

[daktari]

So Cadullac Supercruise use a Lidar and EyQ3 right? One camera?
It is interesting that their marketing is pitched like "really hands free without nagging". But I think the hands on is smart at this point of maturity.
I would love the lane change feature. Auto lane change is a bit to cumbersome really atm.
And, .38 is a really good update on that type of roads Supercruise would work on. so good the race is on!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@daktari no lidar, just premade lidar maps.

 

[daktari]

@daktari no lidar, just premade lidar maps.

Aha, so technically, why should it outperform Ap1?

 

[Bladerskb]

Same with Full Self-driving: At least they got all the sensors installed on present cars and it's a matter of waiting to see whether that will ever work or not!

No other car companies has a final design for sensor installation for their autonomous vehicles just yet.

This is no true. tacking together 8 cameras and a Nvidia GPU to a car and call its FSD, anyone can do that. but the other automakers aint desperate to sell cars and deceive their customer like Tesla.

In fact its not even Tesla design, its mobileye's design stolen by Tesla. The entire 8 camera system and their exact location has been mobileye idea since 2013. the triple forward facing camera system is even patented by mobileye.

(that's a journalist on the driver seat btw)

Test Drive, No Hands Needed

Rather take a look at the comprehensive final design of the Google's car.
That's an ACTUAL design, not stealing a 8 camera config from another company and sticking an off the shelf gpu into your car.

 

[lunitiks]

the other automakers aint desperate to sell cars and deceive their customer like Tesla

Your Actual Kid Fom Michigan's back @calisnow !

J/K, but seriously, I agree with the other things blade said. Tesla wasnt first to invent or propose this setup. But they were first to shove it to market. I'm curious about the IP relationship between ME and Tesla

 

[pilotSteve]

This is no true. tacking together 8 cameras and a Nvidia GPU to a car and call its FSD, anyone can do that. but the other automakers aint desperate to sell cars and deceive their customer like Tesla.

In fact its not even Tesla design, its mobileye's design stolen by Tesla. The entire 8 camera system and their exact location has been mobileye idea since 2013. the triple forward facing camera system is even patented by mobileye.

(that's a journalist on the driver seat btw)

Test Drive, No Hands Needed

Rather take a look at the comprehensive final design of the Google's car.
That's an ACTUAL design, not stealing a 8 camera config from another company and sticking an off the shelf gpu into your car.

This kind of design for fault tolerance and redundancy is almost universally used in avionics systems that are safety of flight critical. Elon/Tesla/SpaceX certainly know this. Perhaps they made commercial decisions that cars can’t afford the costs associated with that capability. However as hardware costs drop and liability awards rise those cost/benefit lines cross. IMO we are just not quite there. 2020 maybe?

 

[NerdUno]

Release Notes saying something like Autopilot is restricted to 35 MPH might be here today on your 17" screen display but it can also disappear by tomorrow.

However, on that same 17" screen display, its latest owner's manual is there to be read. And that what counts!

Not sure where you got your law degree, but you're apparently not keeping up with your CLE credits. Suffice it to say, you're mistaken unless Tesla expressly disclaims the use after providing it to customers. And, even then, it would be a close call. If they don't want it used, don't provide it. Of course that wouldn't help them sell cars.

 

[croman]

Apparently the blue car is like Peter Pan. You either believe and it appears or you've lost the ability to imagine

Tesla specifically mentioned two versions of AP for HW2 which they termed "highways (e.g. divided limited access roads) and "local roads" (everything else). I believe they operated as different programs until 17.17.4 due to their operating behavior differences but, as of now, highway AP differentiates itself in offering auto lane change and allows AS speeds up to 90mph (auto lane change only operable above 31mph for me). I know that Tesla intends for us to use AS HW2 on local roads because they have released software for it and they used to geofence use of AP to limited access highways (actually it was even more restrictive than that but they've eased it back when they declared AP1 parity (17.17.4 first allowed AS on US Route 41, but ironically, not to the Highland Park Tesla location, it stopped at Lake Cook but if you were operating Highway AS, it would continue past the geofence but that ability has stopped once they switched to TomTom for GPS)).

Anyways, the proof is in the programming and the release notes. The Owner's Manual is irrelevant. Even electrek notes, back in Feb, local roads are AP2 (a big divergence from the AP1 de facto but not de jure local road use (likely limited in some way by ME).

So I don't feel Cadillac offers (to bring this back to topic) anything on AP right now. AP is so much more useful for me (currently almost 95% of my total mileage though I take over all the hard parts like RR tracks, areas with pedestrians, and a couple known areas where AP is unpredictable despite clearly marked lanes (curves through intersections even with dashed lines (it will go straight and then sharply turn or just turn off (red flashing hands)).

But yea, 95% of a 49 mile round trip commute (door to door). I've been using it and I still keep it on a short leash but its useful. Caddy's Super Cruise would only give me about 25% of my local commute (since it says only interstates at present). If they lidar mapped the other roads, it would be very useful as well for a L2 system but that isn't in the cards and I don't see it changing for those buying cars now.

I also owned a HW2 car before AP existed and I've seen it glacially improve. I'm not pleased with that but what Tesla offers is still the best offered by another manufacturer.

That's where I think I part ways with anyone touting Audi, (phantom future) Nissan ProPilot, or GM.

Maybe some day for those companies but the same also applies to Tesla and we've pretty much talked our faces (as well as the cars!) blue.

Tesla wasnt first to invent or propose this setup. But they were first to shove it to market. I'm curious about the IP relationship between ME and Tesla

I doubt its that complicated. Anything that's "essential" to an industry will be mechanically licensed. Its just a fixed industry wide licensing fee. Also I'm not sure someone skilled in the arts couldn't have thought of a 3 camera set up. So then it becomes down to the particular methods and devices ME created for their particular tri cam setup and the question shifts to whether Tesla relied on any of that or did their own thing.

 

[croman]

Also, I'm sick of people mentioning the owner's manual as somehow relevant to what you should or shouldn't do with AP. The release notes are a lot more illuminating as are the actual contours of the software provided (which limit it as much as Tesla desires).

Even Tesla's own warnings quoted by @Tam show they just "intend" for people to use it on highways. The fact they are aware and understand that consumers will use it on local roads and have provided functionality for us to use it there (and they have the clear power and ability to prevent us from using it) says a lot more than an Owners Manual that tells me I have rain sensing auto wipers and a bunch of other garbage that clearly doesn't make sense and isn't true.

When I got my car, it kept telling me I had an AP1 car with a bunch of stuff about having AEB and autosteer and whatnot. None of that was true or accurate or about my actual car. Tesla never took its own Owners Manual seriously, so no one else should either. So lets drop that load of canard and focus on reality and logic.

 

[Bladerskb]

So I don't feel Cadillac offers (to bring this back to topic) anything on AP right now. AP is so much more useful for me (currently almost 95% of my total mileage though I take over all the hard parts like RR tracks, areas with pedestrians, and a couple known areas where AP is unpredictable despite clearly marked lanes (curves through intersections even with dashed lines (it will go straight and then sharply turn or just turn off (red flashing hands)).

But yea, 95% of a 49 mile round trip commute (door to door). I've been using it and I still keep it on a short leash but its useful. Caddy's Super Cruise would only give me about 25% of my local commute (since it says only interstates at present). If they lidar mapped the other roads, it would be very useful as well for a L2 system but that isn't in the cards and I don't see it changing for those buying cars now.

I also owned a HW2 car before AP existed and I've seen it glacially improve. I'm not pleased with that but what Tesla offers is still the best offered by another manufacturer.

That's where I think I part ways with anyone touting Audi, (phantom future) Nissan ProPilot, or GM.

Maybe some day for those companies but the same also applies to Tesla and we've pretty much talked our faces (as well as the cars!) blue.

Dismissing Super cruise (the best L2 system available) and saying it has nothing on AP or offers nothing on AP because its limited to highway is like dismissing (for example) a L4 highway car that you can buy right now and saying it has nothing on the current L2 AP because the L4 car is limited to highway.

Its absurd.

I doubt its that complicated. Anything that's "essential" to an industry will be mechanically licensed. Its just a fixed industry wide licensing fee. Also I'm not sure someone skilled in the arts couldn't have thought of a 3 camera set up. So then it becomes down to the particular methods and devices ME created for their particular tri cam setup and the question shifts to whether Tesla relied on any of that or did their own thing.

Its not just implementation, its also functionality and it also has nothing on whether a company relied on anything, you can infringe on a patent by mistake.

Mobileye has alot of patents

Patents by Assignee Mobileye Vision Technologies Ltd. - Justia Patents Search

The lawsuits won't start flying till after 2020 then all of a sudden everyone will start suing each other

 

[croman]

@Bladerskb Here's a tip from me to you (as a sort of payback for the info you've provided on self driving). Use Google Patents.

Google Patents

You can further refine any search and it has both published applications and granted utility and design patents (lets just ignore design patents).