MsElectric, AR, Kugerrand and Johan discuss TMC moderation

[ecarfan]

Bonnie's comments about the challenges of moderating are spot on. I spent several years moderating a classic Porsche forum, and recently became a moderator here after being a member for over a year.

No matter what a moderator does, some people will feel they went to far, others that they didn't go far enough. On the whole I think the moderation on TMC is pretty fair. Of all the posts reported, only a small percentage are easy to decide how to handle. Many are difficult judgement calls.

@MsElecteic has not been "censored", in my opinion. The discussion continues...

 

[dsm363]

I don't think we can agree to disagree on this. Your off topic posts were moved and in the original thread a pointer was left saying 'look over here to see these off topic posts'. If there was censorship then they would have been deleted and no note to let anyone who hadn't seen your off topic posts before know that they even existed.

And by moved to snippiness you mean deleted right? They mean the same thing I've heard.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

I would consider relevant information moved to another part of the site to absolutely be censorship as it prevents what someone took the time to share from being read by others.

My definition of censorship is very simple. If you shared information where it was relevant and that information you shared is no longer available to be viewed where it was shared I consider the information to have been censored and at that point whether the information was "moved" or "deleted" is a moot point as it is a matter of semantics.

I'm absolutely reading your words on the front page of new posts.
Time for a new definition (again) I guess.

 

[Krugerrand]

So I was right, my post actually did get moderated and this is precisely what I was talking about...

If you stay on thread topic you won't have to be concerned about having your post/s moved to a more relevant thread. It's really just that easy. And if you follow the forum rules, you'll also not have to give censorship or other forms of moderation a second thought. In the end, if that's too hard to do, or you don't want to do it, or, or, or, you can follow Tesla on Tesla's website forum (which I see you are familiar with). That might be more agreeable to you.

Though I am new here the level of moderation (and essentially censorship where posts are shoved into some black hole) I have witnessed here is beyond anything I have seen on any of the Mercedes forums or the actual Tesla Corporate forum where the information posted is peer reviewed and peer moderated with comments by other forum members but hardly anyone is ever silenced.

If this is what you think, then you haven't participated in enough forums on the Internet to get a clear picture of the level of moderation TMC does in reality, which is pretty much smack dab down the centerline. Less than hardly anyone is silenced here, the moderators simply require people to interact and behave within a particular scope of civility, which is decently broad. There are sometimes situations that arise where a moderator has to make a subjective judgement call. We must forgive them if we're on the wrong side of that. After all, they are human and not getting paid. :wink:

All the responses to my casual comment is proof that I am not alone in feeling that the level of moderation on the TMC is quite high as this topic seems to have hit a nerve.

Um...there were exactly FOUR people in the main body of conversation on the topic and it was an even split of 50/50, meaning you and Ranger were on one side and Johan and I were on the other side. That's hardly an example of 'all the responses......'

I can think of two examples that I felt were very unreasonable with draconian moderations that I have not experienced anything similar to this in 15+ years of use of other online car forums.

There was a person on this forum 'PlanB" who I thought was being extremely disrespectful and I might have made a sarcastic remark to something he said that I thought was completely out of line. My comment was civilized and to the point but I somehow got demoted over that comment and later PlanB was actually banned. It just seemed patronizing that a moderator or someone can demote my forum alias as apparently some way of teaching me a lesson for essentially defending myself with a comment towards someone who is so awful that they ended up being banned from the forum. Any other forum I am on if someone makes an unreasonable comment towards you, you respond and as long as it is not being verbally abusive your voice is not silenced.

The other example I recall of what I consider to be draconian censorship is on the Tesla for sale section someone listed a car a price that several forum members thought was much higher than the going market price and more than what you can buy an inventory vehicle. In any other forums, such information presented by other forum members would have been appreciated as it helps the original seller set a reasonable price and it helps someone looking to purchase a vehicle know about the actual market prices. After all the whole point o f a public forum is to share information and learn from others and if someone disagrees with anything they can present facts as to why they disagree. But in this case the comments other forum members took the time to write were all removed and I personally consider that to be a level of censorship that I have not witnessed in any other car forum.

Fortunately there have been dozen of for sale ads on this forum for people to get that kind of information. A deletion of a many replicated topic isn't a big deal.

Finally in closing the TMC forum is quite useful and I appreciate all the work that goes into maintaining it. However the heavy moderation I have seen makes it seem like this is the Muriburiland of Tesla information where there is a very low tolerance for dissent or other opinions.

Repeating for you, TMC is not heavily moderated (relative to Internet Forums all over the world) nor is there very low tolerance for dissent or other opinions. We even have a snippy thread for those comments that go over the line, for all to read.

It seems there is a propensity here to moderate and censor what other forum members take time to share that is more than necessary.

Disagree, but if you think that you do have some options. Would you like to discuss those?

There is really no difference between a post that is deleted or one that is "moved" as they are essentially the same thing.

Okay, now you made me snort soda all over my laptop. There is a HUGE difference between deletion and moving a post. GIGANTIC.

Delete: To cancel, strike out, cut out, blot out
Move: To change place, location

See, not the same at all.

None of the other car Tesla or Mercedes forums have such a high occurrence of posts being censored but somehow they all remain at least as useful and information as the TMC forum.

Even IF that were true, which we don't agree on, this isn't other Tesla or Mercedes forums. This is TMC.

 

[efusco]

Ms. Electric, I'm a brand new moderator here on TMC, but prior to this I've been a moderator at PriusChat.com for approximately 12 years. I can assure you that one of the challenges I'm facing here is that they are far less aggressive with off-topic and snippy comments than we ever were at the Prius forum. I can further let you know that that aggressive form of moderation is exactly what keeps that forum as active and useful today as it was 10 years ago. New people don't get frustrated with tangential topics within a thread they're trying to understand. They don't get hostile or intimidating posts if they as a "stupid newbie" question.

As is always the case, if you find the level of moderation not to your liking you can certainly attempt to cite very specific examples and make your point within the proper forum or to the proper people. But I think the pattern at TMC has been set and significant variations are highly unlikely going forward, though there is always fine tuning of the nuances. And while we don't want to chase anyone away, this forum is what it is and is designed to appeal to the majority rather than just to a vocal few. If you can't adapt, then perhaps another forum is the way to go for you.

 

[Doug_G]

Though I am new here the level of moderation (and essentially censorship where posts are shoved into some black hole) I have witnessed here is beyond anything I have seen on any of the Mercedes forums or the actual Tesla Corporate forum

I don't really want to wade into this... but I have to call shenanigans on that one. The Tesla corporate forums are a mess. On the one hand, they don't do anything to moderate the discussion, so it's a huge free-for-all. On the other hand, they can and do delete posts and threads wholesale, without comment, whenever they see something they don't like. Happens all the time.

The corporate forums were worth reading back in the Roadster days, but I've pretty much given up on them.

 

[dirkhh]

Oh wow, what a fun exchange! And I missed it. Now I feel left out. So many chances to be inconsiderate, stubborn, obnoxious, annoying... but thankfully a couple of the people here carried the load on that task.
And it's been, what, almost a month since the last THE MODERATORS SUCK!!!!! thread. (is suck an allowable word?)

I thought we had discussed this ad infinitum the last sixteen times this happened?

Yes, it's frustrating if your posts were moved.
Yes, with the exception of MY posts (where the moderation always was completely random and unjustifiable, based on my own, completely objective analysis), in general the moderation here has been very even handed if somewhat biased to a nanny-ish handling of the use of bad words
And yes, the vast majority of people here (certainly including myself) appreciate the incredibly hard and in general underthanked work of the moderators to keep things reasonably polite, to cut back on the personal attacks and to stay somewhat on topic (even in off topic threads at times).

So those of you who are wrong (I will not name you to avoid being accused of snippiness - it should be obvious) - get over it. I did when the biased, unfair and overzealous moderators moved my extremely brilliant contributions to other threads. The objective, impressively fair and even handed moderators were doing a good job moving YOUR posts. And if you can't get over it... well, there are other forums where you can be yourself without any interference by the moderation staff.

Peace.

 

[Krugerrand]

Hey, I want to ask the moderator who started this thread if for the next one *we* (me, AR, Missy Electric and Johan) could do something more exciting?

MsElectric, AR, Kugerrand and Johan discuss whether they'll go to the nude beach in Morocco or not?

 

[bonnie]

Hey, I want to ask the moderator who started this thread if for the next one *we* (me, AR, Missy Electric and Johan) could do something more exciting?

MsElectric, AR, Kugerrand and Johan discuss whether they'll go to the nude beach in Morocco or not?

I think you should start that thread. There may not be much discussion, but I bet the view count will be high.

 

[ecarfan]

I think you should start that thread. There may not be much discussion, but I bet the view count will be high.

Only if there are photos...

 

[dirkhh]

But wouldn't that immediately get moved into some weird thread for "inappropriate content"?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A friendly suggestion on how to not make it seem like transfers to snippiness etc. are post deletion through oblivion - please don't do it like Doug_G here just now did - posting a link to the first page of a 138 page (relative to settings) snippiness thread:

I just moved a bunch of posts to snippiness

Because in reality, not many are going to look for the appropriate place in the snippiness thread, nor continue the conversation there. A link to the message in snippiness would allow the conversation to continue. I would also personally recommend considering a different moderator moderate's when a dispute between a moderator and a member, because the moderator involved in the conversation could have a conflict of interest - it looks a bit bad if a moderator debates and then moves the messages:

snippiness - Page 138

- - - Updated - - -

snippiness - Page 138

Edit: Oh. I didn't see this coming (when making the comment above), the snippiness thread is closed for further comments, so that definitely means such a measure will kill conversation. I tried to participate there.

I'll have to post my reply here then:

While catastrophic change in the face on great disruption is certainly a known phenomenon, I think people in this thread are being overly dismissive of Mercedes Benz's investment in alternative fuel technologies (after all, they are the one party in the industry that has bet pretty much on all of them and heavily, including in Tesla) - and are reading too much into the public statements of their CEO.

Nothing I've seen of Mercedes Benz suggests to me they are not aware of the disruptions happening in alternative fuel vehicles and that they aren't gearing up to meet those challenges. To suggest a CEOs comment means they are on a path where they will ignore EVs and will "abtruptly die", seems to me hyperbole. I think it might do good to replace that comment with more conservative wording that most could agree with and leave it at that?

Same with Auzie's "Mercedes CEO choosing a particular course for his business that seem to focus too much on profit now at the expense of developing future alternative technologies", which to me shows pure ignorance towards what Mercedes does in the area. I mean, we are talking about Mercedes guys, not Audi, not Porsche... Please, people.

I thought originally Doug_G may have been merely a playful jab at the MB CEOs balancing act on the PR message that bluenation took too seriously, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Johan]

I'll go.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

We just got our own thread and you bail? Pfft!

As for myself, one would have to be a complete fool to continue a discussion where one discussion party has recommended putting fingers in the ears and another has reported having done so? I'm glad you didn't, though. It kind of makes hearing each other harder - and for me, that's what it is about, hearing each other. It is unfortunate when hearing stops and mere yelling or ignoring starts, but text as a discussion medium is hard, one can't always reach mutual understanding.

Enjoy the communal pummeling, MsElectric.

I'll bow out with a comment that curiously was left in the other thread:

Krugerrand, the ignore feature works great. It's really too bad what's happened to the forum lately. Certain threads get hijacked making it difficult to discuss the issue raised. To deal with this, it may be best to stop quoting and responding, and just ignore.

Ironically, I feel the same way - some threads where real issues have been attempted to discuss, have been hijacked by either too defensive comments on Tesla or off-topic derailing by people not interested in discussing the actual topic (say, Model X mules), who may even prefer we didn't discuss mules at all for fear of hurting Tesla.

I would say the above has been going on in more threads than the two or three where the topic of TMC culture has been discussed. In reverse, your suggestion of ignoring certain people on, say, Model X mule threads would probably be solid advice. I think I will go down Krugerrand's path, though, and use my mental ignore as applicable.

In any case, it wasn't my intent to derail this thread. Apologies for that - will try harder. I merely wanted to back up MsElectric's opinion with mine.

Some people live just to stir the pot, and raise the blood pressure of others. It frustrates me too when certain people constantly take shots at the people who volunteer their time to run this place, rather than show even an ounce of appreciation, but you just can't reason with those types of people. It's probably best to just ignore them.

That is definitely not my intent. I think TMC is a worthy forum on a worthy mission. I, too, have felt pot shots at my attempts to volunteer time and energy here - perhaps by the very same people you defend with that comment. I think that in the Model X sub-forum I've provided some value to TMC, but it certainly doesn't always feel appreciated. I get it isn't always nice, but some of that discussion may be for the overall good of the place - including criticism of various activities, including my own of course. A healthy community is able to look at itself critically too and evolve.

Sorry and back to WSJ.

 

[Doug_G]

A friendly suggestion on how to not make it seem like transfers to snippiness etc. are post deletion through oblivion - please don't do it like Doug_G here just now did - posting a link to the first page of a 138 page (relative to settings) snippiness thread:

We move posts over to snippiness because they don't merit continued readership and discussion. We don't like to delete posts whenever possible, so this is where they are vanquished. At least some of the people in the discussion have been rude and/or engaged in personal attacks. And as you've noticed now, Snippiness is locked to prevent continued nastiness. So I'm not going to go out of my way to point out where the nastiness is. In any case, hit LAST and you'll find the latest.

because the moderator involved in the conversation could have a conflict of interest - it looks a bit bad if a moderator debates and then moves the messages:

Well my first approach was to warn the member that he was flirting with a personal attack, and I explicitly stated that I would have been harsher had it been against anyone else. His response was to up the ante. Now I could have gone and found another moderator to do the job, but that's just wasting everyone's time, because it's pretty clear that the move was entirely warranted.

I will not comment further on this case.

 

[Krugerrand]

As for myself, one would have to be a complete fool to continue a discussion where one discussion party has recommended putting fingers in the ears and another has reported having done so?

I think your underwear is choking you.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll go.

To Morocco or to a Moroccan nude beach?

 

[Johan]

Both

 

[dirkhh]

Both

You're going to the nude beach and your underwear is choking you? That doesn't make sense, Johan...

 

[AnOutsider]

You're going to the nude beach and your underwear is choking you? That doesn't make sense, Johan...

Clearly, Johan likes the Mongs.

 

[Johan]

You're going to the nude beach and your underwear is choking you? That doesn't make sense, Johan...

We don't wear underwear at the nude beach.

However I wasn't aware that Morocco was a nudist bonanza.