MsElectric, AR, Kugerrand and Johan discuss TMC moderation

[dirkhh]

We don't wear underwear at the nude beach.

I know... so how can it be choking you?

 

[bonnie]

Clearly, Johan likes the Mongs.

Well that's a minute of my life I'll never get back.

 

[AnOutsider]

Well that's a minute of my life I'll never get back.

Even if you could, you wouldn't.

 

[Johan]

Yep. Me and Borat. Sexy time.

 

[dirkhh]

Well that's a minute of my life I'll never get back.

My eyes. They are bleeding.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A friendly suggestion on how to not make it seem like transfers to snippiness etc. are post deletion through oblivion - please don't do it like Doug_G here just now did - posting a link to the first page of a 138 page (relative to settings) snippiness thread:

We move posts over to snippiness because they don't merit continued readership and discussion. We don't like to delete posts whenever possible, so this is where they are vanquished. At least some of the people in the discussion have been rude and/or engaged in personal attacks. And as you've noticed now, Snippiness is locked to prevent continued nastiness. So I'm not going to go out of my way to point out where the nastiness is. In any case, hit LAST and you'll find the latest.

because the moderator involved in the conversation could have a conflict of interest - it looks a bit bad if a moderator debates and then moves the messages:

Well my first approach was to warn the member that he was flirting with a personal attack, and I explicitly stated that I would have been harsher had it been against anyone else. His response was to up the ante. Now I could have gone and found another moderator to do the job, but that's just wasting everyone's time, because it's pretty clear that the move was entirely warranted.

I will not comment further on this case.

Thank you Doug_G for taking the time to respond to my suggestion. In any case, the info is appreciated.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Thank you Doug_G for taking the time to respond to my suggestion. In any case, the info is appreciated.

By the by, inserting a link to the particular post location in Snippiness would add about a minute to the time it takes me to do that. Given that I've already spent perhaps five minutes trying to find where exactly to slice the mold off the cheese, I'm not interested in spending the extra time to link to posts that really shouldn't have been posted. I will even go to the lengths of copying a post to Snippiness and then excising the snippy bits so that the rest can remain.

To reiterate points Bonnie made, the only posts I have ever deleted in nearly three years of moderating are duplicate posts, which happen very occasionally because of a software glitch, and posts I placed into moderation and then discussed with the original poster. Posts are never intentionally left in the "black hole" of moderated status for longer than it takes to deal with them.

I am confident that no moderator has ever deleted or even moved a post because he or she disagreed with what was said. How you say something can end the post up in Snippiness. Going off on politics, religion or other tangents can put your post in one of the quarantine threads. Going off-topic with something that not objectionable but not about Tesla or other forum topics (e.g. energy & environment) will put you in the Off Topic forum. Hijacking a thread's topic can put your thread in a new topic or an appropriate existing topic.

There is another question entirely raised by this thread, which is whether peer pressure intimidates some posters. The answer: absolutely. I've seen "drill, baby, drill" posters in the Energy & Environment section who lasted only a few days under the withering rebuttal they encountered. I've seen investor bears have their arguments dismantled before quietly slinking away. I don't interfere at all in such threads until the argument gets personal. Posts that critique ideas and avoid profanities endure, but I have very little patience for posts that critique TMC members.

 

[dirkhh]

[...]Given that I've already spent perhaps five minutes trying to find where exactly to slice the mold off the cheese, [...]

LOVE that phrase... will need to steal it.

Posts that critique ideas and avoid profanities endure, but I have very little patience for posts that critique TMC members.

Go after what people say, go after their arguments, their style, their misuse of words (oops, wrong thread). Don't go after the people.
You may think dirkhh is a dodohead (and you would be in good company). But you should criticize the content, not the person.

 

[bonnie]

Posts that critique ideas and avoid profanities endure, but I have very little patience for posts that critique TMC members.

Go after what people say, go after their arguments, their style, their misuse of words (oops, wrong thread). Don't go after the people.

And this is exactly why I finally used the 'ignore' option. I got tired of the passive-aggressive digs at what my motivation was or why I said what I said or attributing intent that wasn't there. I asked it to stop and just focus on the topic. It didn't. So I used the option available to me.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And this is exactly why I finally used the 'ignore' option. I got tired of the passive-aggressive digs at what my motivation was or why I said what I said or attributing intent that wasn't there. I asked it to stop and just focus on the topic. It didn't. So I used the option available to me.

As I said over PM in response to you, the feeling is absolutely mutual.

Not that I'm ignoring anyone.

- - - Updated - - -

There is another question entirely raised by this thread, which is whether peer pressure intimidates some posters. The answer: absolutely. I've seen "drill, baby, drill" posters in the Energy & Environment section who lasted only a few days under the withering rebuttal they encountered. I've seen investor bears have their arguments dismantled before quietly slinking away. I don't interfere at all in such threads until the argument gets personal. Posts that critique ideas and avoid profanities endure, but I have very little patience for posts that critique TMC members.

I think it needs to be noted, too intense peer pressure can also result in pushing away people and silencing opinions one wouldn't wish to go away for diversity's sake. Just something to think about.

 

[Robert.Boston]

I think it needs to be noted, too intense peer pressure can also result in pushing away people and silencing opinions one wouldn't wish to go away for diversity's sake. Just something to think about.

I'm open to hearing your ideas about what practical changes we could make to moderating practices that would encourage more open discussion. All of the options I can think of would require moderators to limit or otherwise censor unobjectionable speech.

 

[Krugerrand]

I think it needs to be noted, too intense peer pressure can also result in pushing away people and silencing opinions one wouldn't wish to go away for diversity's sake.

Yep, that can happen. Fortunately there's a solid set of forum rules here and decent moderation that only those with the thinnest skin and highest sensitivities are likely to be pressured off, which is probably in their best interest anyway.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm open to hearing your ideas about what practical changes we could make to moderating practices that would encourage more open discussion. All of the options I can think of would require moderators to limit or otherwise censor unobjectionable speech.

Thank you for your calm responses, Robert.Boston.

I doubt a cultural change in this regard could ever happen through force, let alone through force alone. But what my wish - and motivation for bringing up the topic - has been is that moderators and other senior membership that hold major say and sway over the forum would take note and maybe pass the idea forwards amongst them. If enough senior people were to stand up for even more of a culture of inclusiveness (including when it means welcoming "dissent"), it could bring change with it. A fruitful opportunity would be pretty much any thread where a minority voice is getting a solid beating from the majority. Maybe in those instances if a few senior voices were to genuinely want to calm the atmosphere, to make sure the minority voice is better heard (that doesn't mean agreement must happen, but sometimes the voice is drowned out by misunderstandings) and that it doesn't become merely a free for all of ignorant one-liners against one or two.

 

[dsm363]

I think you may find the official Tesla forums better suited for you. What you are asking for already happens. We don't step in when people disagree. This is a Tesla dedicated forum so of course if someone comes here and says 'EVs are horrible and a waste of money' they will get pushback. As long as it's kept civil on both sides it is allowed. Show me proof we don't allow that kind of dialog. Please stop trying to make something out of nothing.

 

[dirkhh]

If enough senior people were to stand up for even more of a culture of inclusiveness (including when it means welcoming "dissent"), it could bring change with it. A fruitful opportunity would be pretty much any thread where a minority voice is getting a solid beating from the majority. Maybe in those instances if a few senior voices were to genuinely want to calm the atmosphere, to make sure the minority voice is better heard (that doesn't mean agreement must happen, but sometimes the voice is drowned out by misunderstandings) and that it doesn't become merely a free for all of ignorant one-liners against one or two.

A minority voice that states factually inaccurate claims, that insists on stating as "fact" or "analysis" what is wild speculation, that keeps bringing up claims that have long been refuted or keeps bringing up the same claims without any new arguments actually SHOULD be contradicted - consistently.
We don't want this forum to descend into something where a minority with time on their hands can derail any thread and can keep pushing incorrect or misrepresented theories.
There are many of us who have skeptical views on some aspects that others are super bullish about. As long as these are voiced in a way that represents them as an opinion these appear to be well received.

 

[NigelM]

But what my wish - and motivation for bringing up the topic - has been is that moderators and other senior membership that hold major say and sway over the forum would take note and maybe pass the idea forwards amongst them. If enough senior people were to stand up for even more of a culture of inclusiveness (including when it means welcoming "dissent"), it could bring change with it. A fruitful opportunity would be pretty much any thread where a minority voice is getting a solid beating from the majority. Maybe in those instances if a few senior voices were to genuinely want to calm the atmosphere, to make sure the minority voice is better heard (that doesn't mean agreement must happen, but sometimes the voice is drowned out by misunderstandings) and that it doesn't become merely a free for all of ignorant one-liners against one or two.

I politely suggest that you maybe do some reading research. Moderators and others here regularly stand up for the dissenting opinion and argue for it to be heard, but there's a huge difference in being inclusive towards new members or contrary voices and those folks who attempt to use TMC, the community in general and other members to leverage their own anti-Tesla agenda and/or their personal financial aims.

Here's a couple of examples I remember specifically (and there's plenty of them out there) of folks being defended by moderators and others, despite the criticising nature of the initial posts:

Devils-advocating-from-someone-who-shorted-TSLA
Disappointed-in-app-features

Then there's the folks who have their own agenda and seem only to want to further their own interests:

Tesla-sued-under-Wisconsin-Lemon-Law
Tesla-Model-X-Cancellation

Yes, the human reaction is to dismiss an opposing view when it goes against something we love (and most of us do love our Teslas), but on the whole the TMC membership is quite understanding of complaints and suggestions (it's also worth noting here that the site owners allow this type of discussion and even highlight it by putting it into a Site Feedback section); what members have (understandably) little tolerance for are the folks who come in and do something like announcing a class-action lawsuit on their very first post, members don't like being used like that.

 

[dsm363]

[Nigel drops the mic and walks away]

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Just to be clear, my response was to Robert.Boston who showed understanding with his comment:

There is another question entirely raised by this thread, which is whether peer pressure intimidates some posters. The answer: absolutely.

I'm open to hearing your ideas about what practical changes we could make to moderating practices that would encourage more open discussion. All of the options I can think of would require moderators to limit or otherwise censor unobjectionable speech.

I hope you don't mind if I choose not to waste any of our time trying to repeat the point to an uninterested part of the audience. It really has dawned on me I can not reach you all, guys - maybe it is a limitation of the medium, I think over those beers we'd get over it in no time. I really think it is for all our best.

But those who hear what I say, please feel free to think of ways to improve the diversity and inclusiveness of the site if/when you encounter a thread where someone with a different kind of opinion/view is getting the "communal treatment". Maybe a calming voice or two, a bit more understanding could help calm threads down, without any need for moderation.

As for all the comments suggesting some other forum might be a better place for people who feel like me (and there have been several already, in this thread too), I find that an unfortunate approach, but it is what it is. I'm hoping for a more inclusive outcome, if not for myself, then for others who will follow.

Peace out.

 

[dsm363]

Just to be clear, my response was to Robert.Boston who showed understanding with his comment:





I hope you don't mind if I choose not to waste any of our time trying to repeat the point to an uninterested part of the audience. It really has dawned on me I can not reach you all, guys - maybe it is a limitation of the medium, I think over those beers we'd get over it in no time. I really think it is for all our best.

But those who hear what I say, please feel free to think of ways to improve the diversity and inclusiveness of the site if/when you encounter a thread where someone with a different kind of opinion/view is getting the "communal treatment". Maybe a calming voice or two, a bit more understanding could help calm threads down, without any need for moderation.

As for all the comments suggesting some other forum might be a better place for people who feel like me (and there have been several already, in this thread too), I find that an unfortunate approach, but it is what it is. I'm hoping for a more inclusive outcome, if not for myself, then for others who will follow.

Peace out.

I don't think you get it. If someone comes here saying 'you drive around in coal burning cars that are more polluting than a Hummer' should we all join hands and sing or are we allowed to point out the errors in their logic? People have the right to point out factual errors and argue their point. As long as they don't belittle the person or call them names we don't step in. If that person is offended there isn't much we can do about that. Please stop trying to turn this isn't an issue when it isn't.

 

[NigelM]

I hope you don't mind if I choose not to waste any of our time trying to repeat the point to an uninterested part of the audience.

It's a shame you dismiss other's views as them being "uninterested", perhaps try to listen to the fact that plenty of folks here try to be inclusive and it's not helped by constant criticism. I gave you a couple of examples and I can think of several more but just don't have the time (or the inclination now) to list them all.