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engle
Member
In the Spring of 2013, I was driving our Mercedes 2012 ML 350 on vacation in Beverly Hills hundreds of miles away from home when I experienced a catastrophic power steering unit failure while driving. It's a good thing I was driving (instead of my wife) as I was barely able to steer the vehicle on city streets without power steering to the local Benz store. We left it there and they had to replace the unit, which had to be ordered. Mercedes paid for a good rental car to continue our trip and later drive home to SF Bay Area.
The repaired Mercedes SUV with a new power steering unit arrived on a flat bed truck a few days later.
Did I post my experience on a Mercede's owner's website to bash Mercedes quality?
No.
Anyway, my point is similar things can happen to Mercedes vehicles, too! Tesla vehicles are so "high profile" it seems like almost everything negative someone has experienced with one gets posted to a website.
Perhaps Teslas should come with a warning (common sense to me for any vehicle) to the effect:
"When driving in cold weather, please remember to bring sufficient warm clothing and/or blanket(s) in the event of an accident in a remote area or car breakdown."
Russ
Off topic: My friend's Model X reservation is in the 5,000's which might put him into 2016 depending upon how fast they can ramp production and when they really start. Therefore, he's thinking about getting a P85D, instead. He was told if he ordered today he's looking at a March delivery (at the factory). Thus, we went to the factory store last night with our wives and my son for a couple of test drives. There was a large group of folks from Europe there on a "friends and family" factory tour.
I can see why Elon calls it "Insane" mode!!! I'm definitely going to get the Model X P85, hopefully it will be a P100 or P110 by Q3 2015! The P85D I drove had the new seats in front, which were great, and the old ones in the rear. My product specialist said it also has the new 6.1 firmware with "traffic aware" cruise control enabled. I'd intended to try it out to compare to our Mercedes, but was so blown away by the take-off, :biggrin:, and she kept saying, "OK, here's a good place to let it go", that I forgot.
She also told me about the newly-announced Executive Rear Seats package now available in the Model S configurator. I checked-out the photos and they look great IMHO.
engle
Member
I meant all cars, not just Teslas -- it's late here and I was tired when I wrote it. Some (many?) TMC threads become seemingly endless and take on a life of their own. LOL
Ken Edwards
SUN PWR
I agree that a lead-acid 12v battery is a weak point and a surprising choice for Tesla's current flagship P85D vehicle. I have a 2.0 Roadster (July 2009 delivery #511) and, after the warranty ran out and the auxiliary battery had been replaced twice, I replaced it with a 50 amp hour 12v lithium Smart battery. Now my Roadster is all lithium, the way it should have been in the first place. I also replaced every bulb with LEDs. The spirit of these cars calls for all lithium and LEDs. My wife's Model S (Sig Perf.#278 October 2012 delivery) still has the lead-acid 12v battery. When that's out of warranty I'll do the same replacement.
deonb
Active Member
I think is all proved any car can have issues. The question is whether Tesla is more than average or not. Of course if someone in the family no longer had confidence in Tesla it makes sense to move on if you can afford to do so.
Guess Tesla decided to go lead-acid 12v to save on cost? Seems silly, but it is a $500 battery according to quick google search. I'm guessing that Tesla is working on developing their own 12v lithium replacement instead of buying from supply chain.
I trust my personal experience. I am now waiting for my third drive unit to be replaced or repaired. My Tesla grin is slowly fading and I am concerned about the long term reliability of this car. In just under 20,000 miles I've had two drive units replaced for droning noise above 70 MPH, now waiting on a third. Service says there is a shortage of drive units, I wonder why? My ability to continue cutting Tesla slack is being tested. In the meanwhile, my 2010 Toyota Highlander Hybrid has not had a single problem. Neither has my 2007 Prius. Tesla needs to do better. Tesla loves to introduce new products, expand into new markets, yet don't seem able to address flaws in their products for existing customers.
I totally agree with Osama's wife. I also don't think Tesla properly tests its products before putting them into production. Unfortunately the only way to know this after spending a lot of money. As you can tell, I'm a little frustrated. I wouldn't be if the drive unit issue was addressed the first time, but then a 2nd time and now a 3rd... something at Tesla isn't right. Sorry to say.
Gizmotoy
Active Member
To be fair, lead-acid is a tried and true performer in this space, and its failure characteristics are well-known. They're very good at resisting cold, something lithium is bad at. Crucially, it's important that the 12V always have enough power to close the HV contactors, which is how it recharges itself, so you don't want a car set out in the cold unable to start because the capacity of the cell dropped before it was able to close the contactors. In warm climates it's probably a good trade, but I'd be timid in colder climates. If Tesla does switch to a lithum 12V source, it likely needs to be included in the heating/cooling battery management system.
Then there's the cost on a car that's already expensive relative to its closest ICE competitors, buyers of which Tesla now needs to woo.
So there are a couple reasons. And we can't forget how risky this whole thing was. It's easy to second-guess decisions now given the huge success of the Model S, but at the time shoving in some low-tech thing because it's easy and you know it'll work is attractive. Of course, that would have gone better if their supplier for these batteries had a lower failure rate.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
First of all Osama has taken quite a bit of abuse in this thread already, and it seemed we were done with that. The wounds were healing, everyone was moving on, and you decided to come back and try to rip them open for some reason that I'm not sure I understand.
To address your point, Osama has been a regular poster to Tesla Motor Club Forums. He didn't just have a negative experience and come here to write about it, as you imply above. In fact not too long before, Osama had posted about the excellent delivery experience he and his family received.
We all understand that all cars break down. Osama has acknowledged that he was upset and frustrated when he posted. Can we please agree to stop trying to take a pound of flesh out of him over that?
The problem, of course, is that it's one thing to make 100 units and it's another to make 70,000. When you make 70,000 you expose defects that you wouldn't otherwise see. You start to explore the further ends of the tolerance bell-curve for each and every component. The reason that ICEs are so reliable is that they have hundreds of millions of units of experience, and they've learned what's important and what's not. When you're making small volumes of a totally new product, and you're faced with a failure it can be awfully tough to determine the root cause of the failure - let alone determine what should be done to deal with it. I'm also sure that they're dealing with a mountain of HR issues, as they're hiring like mad. They've got to weed out the lesser employees who may not be taking the care required.
I'm not making excuses for them. I'm just pointing out an inevitability. I believe it will take them another 5 years of experience to make these things bullet-proof.
You're right. I'm just a bit frustrated. Tesla service has been great. They jump at every issue and make it right. I just wish I didn't have to keep going through the same issue repeatedly. I understood when I bought this car that I would be an early adopter, and I was willing to take that risk in order to help Tesla move forward and to bring a desirable EV into my household. My issue is scheduled to be resolved in the next 2 weeks and I look forward to the third time being the charm.
On the positive front, the only other issue I've had in the last seven months was the 12v alert and some rattles that were fixed. Most of my other issues happened early and were all resolved. I've also never been stranded or suffered an outright failure of any hardware other than my HPWC.
I'm sorry for briefly derailing the thread, this is not about drive units. I'm sorry.
I must apologize if I have missed something in one of the posts but I only read up to the first 15 pages and then it became...much...
Either case, Osama has the right to be upset, I mean who wouldn't be? You spent over 300K on two cars and then this happens right? Especially when you have to push your car off to the side with people watching and probably thinking bad thoughts and then having to wait in the cold for a tow truck to come and pick up the car?? Especially when you just got it and it broke within the "honeymoon" stage. Honestly I'd be off the wall myself.
But there's also another point that must be stressed, him and his son are safe and that's what matters the most. Nothing is perfect and life happens. Sometimes it comes around late sometimes early, but it's about being able to pull through and live on.
Tesla has come a long way in a market where everyone wants to see them dead and I think that alone deserves an award. No manufacturer has a perfect car when it starts out, not for many years. But Tesla has done it and look where they stand now? If they weren't so great.....then you must ask yourself...why are there so many politicians, companies, etc trying to block them or slow them down? Exactly.
You didn't get a lemon, you're still here and after Tesla puts the comb through this vehicle, you'll be happier than ever. I'm pretty sure someone at Tesla is getting the belt over a knee right now for this whole experience and I'm sure picturing that is worth the hassle
Anyways, I think this thread has had a little more than enough and let's just be a great community and support one another through the good and bad.
Either case, Osama has the right to be upset, I mean who wouldn't be? You spent over 300K on two cars and then this happens right? Especially when you have to push your car off to the side with people watching and probably thinking bad thoughts and then having to wait in the cold for a tow truck to come and pick up the car?? Especially when you just got it and it broke within the "honeymoon" stage. Honestly I'd be off the wall myself.
But there's also another point that must be stressed, him and his son are safe and that's what matters the most. Nothing is perfect and life happens. Sometimes it comes around late sometimes early, but it's about being able to pull through and live on.
Tesla has come a long way in a market where everyone wants to see them dead and I think that alone deserves an award. No manufacturer has a perfect car when it starts out, not for many years. But Tesla has done it and look where they stand now? If they weren't so great.....then you must ask yourself...why are there so many politicians, companies, etc trying to block them or slow them down? Exactly.
You didn't get a lemon, you're still here and after Tesla puts the comb through this vehicle, you'll be happier than ever. I'm pretty sure someone at Tesla is getting the belt over a knee right now for this whole experience and I'm sure picturing that is worth the hassle
Anyways, I think this thread has had a little more than enough and let's just be a great community and support one another through the good and bad.
Jgdixon
Active Member
And before it dies (which I would really like it to) may I remind everyone that I am a VERY happy Tesla owner. I love my car and I love the company and I love the employees. I just can't make my wife feel the same way.
Anyway ... she got her Cayenne today and she's happy and I am happy that she's happy. Life is good and everything else is water under the bridge. Some lucky guy is going to skip the line and get a P85D right away.
Over and out.
