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My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD

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Against my better judgement I’m considering a Highland M3P (or whatever variant it becomes). I’m anticipating that to be announced in Q1 2024.

Coincidentally my M3P will be 4 years old at that point, and when I sell it I’ll have never realised the promised “automatic driving on city streets” feature that was promised to me in 2020.

So really I have no choice but to claim. I don’t think there’s any point in accepting or offering to accept a transfer of the feature to a new car for the simple fact that a) I have little confidence FSDb will be delivered in the lifetime of that car, b) selling the car with FSD would not add £5,800 to the valuation and c) I can just buy FSD at any point that it is clear it is actually coming.

Knowing what I know now there’s no point taking Tesla/Elon’s word on timescales on anything.
 
Let’s all chill please. I hardly ever use this forum but it always seems when I do it’s like this. Not a great place.

It's not a "heated" debate. You are welcome to leave your 👍 wherever a comment meets your criteria/alines with your own views. Not a great thread, maybe 🤷‍♂️ but there are many others for you to explore. You shouldn't really nit pick :)


I love my car. I’ve had it for over 4 years. But there’s still space for nuance.

I agree. That is a good balance. 👍


Sometimes you wouldn’t think it’s allowed.

If you strike the right balance and dont come across as some disgruntled individual that the lease is running out and leaving the mark hence doesn't give a hoot at what is spouted out, its generally welcomed :)
 
I take you have never driven an A roads that are not divided with controlled junctions. There are several thousand miles of these roads that would benefit from the enhanced features of non highways aka city streets beta that would not fall foul of the regulations that you say prevent the use of FSD beta in this country.

You only need to look at a map to see that MANY hundreds of miles or more of these roads (they are the red coloured ones) would fully benefit from FSD beta and a small number of sections would have some minor limitations of which even UK FSD beta handles MANY of those scenarios.

As in my earlier post, I could drive over 3 hours to the West Country and probably encounter 12 or less situations where regulations would prevent full FSD functionality and the majority of those (off top of my head I can think of probably two that wouldn’t) that could be handled gracefully in similar way to existing stop line control does.

There are some scenarios where lateral force may be a slight limitation. Twisty roads might benefit from a slightly increased 4ms2 lateral force to maintain full speed on the tightest minimum radius corners but the tightest radius are not recommended to be used so these would be few and far between. On my 3 hour journey I can think of two corners that probably meet this criteria and would result in slight slowing that would probably still be much faster than what a car towing a caravan could comfortably traverse.

Putting lateral limit into perspective, at around 70mph by my schoolboy maths that's roughly a 320m radius. Now measure the radiius of a typical motorway intersection and compare that with the actual road speed and it’s easy to see why MANY have 40 or 50mph limits. 3ms2 is not such a massive limitation in MANY situations.

But hey, let’s just let the strive for no limitations prevent the un restricted use of it on 9x% of roads where one would spend significant periods of time simply driving from A to B along roads where current UK implementation is not designed to be used.

But I’m never going to win the argument that 90% of something is better than nothing all the while that some think it should be 100% of FSD beta or nothing. Tesla clearly side with the latter.
Of course I have, I live in the UK just like you.

Autopilot will already drive on these roads, and will back off or give up to maintain the lateral G limit.

My point was they can't add features to handle additional scenarios because regulations wont allow them, traffic lights, roundabouts, junctions, lane changes all not possible. So what functionality could they add beyond what it does already that would be legal, why cant it drive this route for you if its so bereft of road features.

The suggestion from @edb49 was that Tesla could deliver the advertised City Streets functionality within the existing regulations, you seem to be thinking that it would be acceptable to you for that to not include all of those scenarios. I doubt many people would agree with you that they met 'full self driving' in that case.
 
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I'll start with a really quick summary. I bought a Model 3, taking delivery in July 2019 and paying £5800 for the FSD extra. My view was that Tesla had failed to deliver on the contract with how they described FSD at the time, and so I ended up taking them to court for £5800 plus interest and costs. Just before the court hearing was about to take place, Tesla settled with me, the core of the settlement being:
- FSD removed from my car, e.g. just standard Autopilot
- Tesla paying me a little over £8000

That's the summary, if you'd like to hear more read on! I posted a thread earlier this year (February) to find out if anyone had previous experience suing Tesla about FSD:
No one was able/willing to come forward with their experience, so this post is to help others out who were in the position I was.

I took delivery of my Model 3 in the first batch on 20/06/2019 - I think this may have been the first day for delivery. I had ticked the FSD option, which was £5800 on the order agreement. When ordered my Model 3 I was pretty excited about FSD - they were saying the city streets feature was going to be ready by the end of 2019, and had posted the video of a Model X navigating to the Tesla facility and parking. Clearly, history shows they were miles away from delivering on their claim.

After considering this, I thought there was a clear legal claim that I had. The basis of the claim was Consumer Rights Act 2015 (“CRA”), section 11(1), which states:

The Tesla website during 2019 described the goods as follows:

Because I ordered my car from Tesla directly, e.g. their website, any description they used then formed part of the contract - this was the basis of my claim.

The timeline of my interaction with Tesla/the court was as follows. I have attached some of the documents to this post, but redacted my address/car reg/VIN. (I have left in the claim number and my claim - I don't feel the need to redact those.)
2023-02-21: I sent the "Letter Before Action" which set out the legal basis for my claim before starting court action [Doc attached]
2023-03-07: Tesla replied, essentially denying my claim
2023-03-07: I issued court proceedings via the Money Claim Online website, a cost of £455 [Two docs attached]
2023-04-05: Telsa filed their defence which admitted the very thing I was claiming on!
2023-06-07: The court proposed to allocate this to the Small Claims track
2023-06-09: I filed the allocation questionnaire and requested the claim was heard at my local court
2023-08-08: The proceedings were transferred to my local court
2023-10-10: The court set directions (e.g. when witness statements should be exchanged)
2023-10-12: The court set a hearing date of 17th Nov
2023-10-16: Tesla sent a settlement offer... this then led to some to and fro which I'll set out in more detail below
2023-10-27: I signed a revised settlement offer (Tesla had already signed it)
2023-11-02: Two payments received in my bank account; £5,800.00 and £2,215.22

It seems to me like Telsa's desire to settle was triggered by the court hearing date being set. Their initial settlement offer had three things I didn't like in it:
1) They only offered £5800 - but if I was successful in court I would get 8% interest on this amount from 1st Jan 2020 to the judgement, as well as court fees.
2) There was a "non-advice" clause, that I wouldn't help anyone with a similar claim to mine.
3) There was a confidentiality clause, that I wouldn't be able to discuss with anyone about the settlement.

I happened to be on my emails when Tesla's first offer came in, so I replied within two minutes with a rather cheeky email:


Anyway, after the tone had been appropriately set...! I decided to deal with the financial aspect, so I wrote back to Tesla to tell them that I thought I'd be successful in my court claim and essentially they'd have to pay the full value of the claim.

They then responded on 17th Oct with a new settlement agreement at the higher financial value I required, but £285.75 short. (They had the full amount of the claim that I issued, but my claim also had interest accruing at £1.27 per day.) I then came back to them in two emails to make a few changes:
- Add the £285.75 to the settlement amount
- Tidy up the legal language
- Remove the "non-advice" clause
- Remove the confidentiality clause

They came back to me saying they accepted most of the amendments but wouldn't remove the non-advice and confidentiality clauses.

Quite simply, I wasn't going to sign anything that put me in handcuffs and restrained what I could do. I would prefer to go to court and lose. I saw these two positions as impossible to meet in the middle - e.g. Tesla had said they're not removing the non-advice and confidentiality clauses, but I said it was a requirement for the settlement for them to do so. I didn't respond to their latest settlement offer and then on 24th Oct I had a follow up email saying they hadn't heard back from their 20th Oct email. (The 20th Oct one had the full financial value I was after, but kept the non-advice and confidentiality clauses. I replied saying:



This led to them removing the two clauses, and we then proceeded to sign the settlement, they asked for my bank details and then made payment/removed FSD from my car.

By way of commentary, I think my claim was an absolute slam-dunk from a legal POV. Their defence had set out they intend to deliver city street driving in the future; therefore they hadn't delivered it by the end of 2019 which was what their website claimed they would do. The website was the description used to sell the car, and so the website formed part of the contract - very clear breach of contract.

From Telsa's POV, I am the worst type of litigator to take on. I am not a lawyer, but deal with them quite often in my day job so I know enough to put in a small claims action with confidence. The money wasn't important to me, I felt they'd conned me and I wanted them to do the right thing and put it right. Moreover, because the money wasn't important to me I was never going to sign up to a non-advice/confidentiality clause, I think it's important that my experience is out there for others to form their own views from.

There's lots of other detail I could put into this post, but I thought these were the interesting points. Happy to answer any questions!
Thank you for fighting to share all of this!
 
If you strike the right balance and dont come across as some disgruntled individual that the lease is running out and leaving the mark hence doesn't give a hoot at what is spouted out, its generally welcomed :)
Well I purchased my car outright with my own money, and spent £5,800 on features never delivered. You are totally welcome to disagree with me, or have done the same and be totally happy. But personally I feel justified in being a little annoyed.
 
Transport Minister now says we won't see FSD cars until 2026!

It would seem unlikely that they will get the bill through parliament in 2024 given the election anyway, and while its clearly not a priority for the most likely next government perhaps they will actually do something given it's ben talked about since 2019.

 
Transport Minister now says we won't see FSD cars until 2026!

It would seem unlikely that they will get the bill through parliament in 2024 given the election anyway, and while its clearly not a priority for the most likely next government perhaps they will actually do something given it's ben talked about since 2019.

Yup, and that’s 2026 on limited roads (motorways). Needless to say FSD Beta on city streets etc won’t be allowed before that.

UK taking a cautious approach. I can’t see that changing massively under a Labour government, plenty of other things to concentrate on. The Government have gone backwards with EV adoption, kicked the can down the road with the cutoff, etc.
 
Remember kids, "Driverless" or "Autonomous" is not the same thing as "Full Self Driving" or "autopilot".
The first two terms imply there is no human driver, the latter two terms describe a driver aid feature that requires a vigiliant human behind the wheel. Governments setting rules for driverless/autonomy has nothing at all to do with Tesla's (future) delivery of FSD.
 
Remember kids, "Driverless" or "Autonomous" is not the same thing as "Full Self Driving" or "autopilot".
The first two terms imply there is no human driver, the latter two terms describe a driver aid feature that requires a vigiliant human behind the wheel. Governments setting rules for driverless/autonomy has nothing at all to do with Tesla's (future) delivery of FSD.

You've basically just told the kids that Father Christmas is not real! o_O:eek:
 
Please give one example of something that Autopilot doesn't do already but you think would be allowed under current UNECE regulations or UK type approval.

I assure you there is very little relevant to 'city street' driving that would be allowable. For example absolutely nothing that would need an indicator to be turned on would be allowed, so you are not going to get far.
For starters - Silent On/OFF of AP.

that would be for the start...
 
For starters - Silent On/OFF of AP.

that would be for the start...
100% no.

I know the article below is not the quite same but the principle is.

In a 10 minute span the autopilot can go on and off several times due to a variety of factors (phantom brake, auto-lane change fail etc etc). I hate the ping and pongs in my Tesla - far too many of them but AP on/off is a must.