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My request that the Arizona Attorney General's office investigate Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode

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You aren't paying attention so I will make it easy for you: Yes he wasted everyone's time because instead of waiting for the AG to educate him on how the law works, he took the one action that closed the AG case without a resolution by the AG. So he wasted the AG's Time by filing his complaint, and then he wasted Tesla's time when they responded to his complaint, but then before the AG would issue a resolution on this he took the action that closed the case.

Filing the small claims court case that would close the AG case that he started is either colossally stupid, or the AG probably gave him a preliminary opinion that they weren't going to find in his favor and so he did this as a way to close the AG case without a formal resolution in Tesla's favor against him which is what would have happened if he hadn't filed the small claims case.

You did read the part about where Tesla ignored every request from the AZ AG until AFTER I filed in Small Claims and then they responded that I filed, right? And about how they only responded to me AFTER I filed?
I did talk to the AZ AG several times and they were the ones that suggested this. They would not commit to me that they would keep on Tesla and force them to do anything. Like someone else said here, bigger companies they tend to back off of. Tesla probably was aware of this, so until small claims came up they just ignored them. Was worth a try.

I really don't want to waste anymore of your time, so please pay no attention to this thread.

My public servants (your words, not mine) at the AG don't agree with you. Some things I can't say. Some things are better not said. I get a lot of requests for information, but I am still trying to not have this in any other social media or news article. Only share some things here because there are others that are affected by this.
 
You did read the part about where Tesla ignored every request from the AZ AG until AFTER I filed in Small Claims and then they responded that I filed, right? And about how they only responded to me AFTER I filed?
I did talk to the AZ AG several times and they were the ones that suggested this. They would not commit to me that they would keep on Tesla and force them to do anything. Like someone else said here, bigger companies they tend to back off of. Tesla probably was aware of this, so until small claims came up they just ignored them. Was worth a try.

I really don't want to waste anymore of your time, so please pay no attention to this thread.

My public servants (your words, not mine) at the AG don't agree with you. Some things I can't say. Some things are better not said. I get a lot of requests for information, but I am still trying to not have this in any other social media or news article. Only share some things here because there are others that are affected by this.

Thank you for doing this! Keep us posted on how it goes.

I'm hoping for a slightly different resolution. I don't want any money back. I just want back the original power that the car had when it was delivered.

Thanks again!
 
Thank you for doing this! Keep us posted on how it goes.

I'm hoping for a slightly different resolution. I don't want any money back. I just want back the original power that the car had when it was delivered.

Thanks again!

Actually this is also exactly what I want and last week I just repeated to Tesla that if they put the power back they owe me nothing and I will eat all the costs I have incurred. I don't want any money, but unfortunately if Tesla refuses to restore the power, money is your only recourse.
 
Tesla engineers have done what no other car company has done or come close to, and you use a few digits on power tools app to malign them?

Tesla stated in the AG response that they thanked the AG for granting them extensions to respond. That happens all the time and that is why they delayed their response. it has nothing to do with small claims filing. Aditionally in the Tesla response is the fact that the complainant doesn't even allege any harm. The AG was almost certainly not going to find any consumer harm to take action against.

Read the Tesla response and inform yourself of relevant facts. This AG case was going nowhere and filing the small claims case gave the AG an easy way out to dispense with this nonsense.

Now the AG can get back to chasing opioid makers and prescribers ( http://www.azcentral.com/story/mone...opioid-heroin-deaths-surge-arizona/362869001/ ) and human traffickers ( Arizona saw 30 percent increase in human trafficking cases in 2016 ) and actual real gov't law enforcement work that they should be spending their time on.


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Well, I guess that sums up why this thread has confused you.

ou did read the part about where Tesla ignored every request from the AZ AG until AFTER I filed in Small Claims and then they responded that I filed, right? And about how they only responded to me AFTER I filed?

I just want back the original power that the car had when it was delivered.
 
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Tesla engineers have done what no other car company has done or come close to, and you use a few digits on power tools app to malign them?

Tesla stated in the AG response that they thanked the AG for granting them extensions to respond. That happens all the time and that is why they delayed their response. it has nothing to do with small claims filing. Aditionally in the Tesla response is the fact that the complainant doesn't even allege any harm. The AG was almost certainly not going to find any consumer harm to take action against.

Read the Tesla response and inform yourself of relevant facts. This AG case was going nowhere and filing the small claims case gave the AG an easy way out to dispense with this nonsense.

Now the AG can get back to chasing opioid makers and prescribers ( Opioid, heroin deaths surge in Arizona ) and human traffickers ( Arizona saw 30 percent increase in human trafficking cases in 2016 ) and actual real gov't law enforcement work that they should be spending their time on.


View attachment 235856

View attachment 235857

.......except that none of the things you underlined are correct.
 
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Again, in this hypothetical scenario I don't see the engineers much involved in that decision.
Who decides and projects how much and what sort of use the battery can take without excessive risk of failure?

This isn't how much horsepower was marketed. This about limiting the highst level of discharge to launch mode.

This is a technical issue about how to best protect the battery. The entire bms has lots of dials to turn, cooling and heating and charging rate and discharge rate. I trust their decisions on what is best.

I'm not going to try to hack or avoid what they think are overall improvements to the bms.

If you want to imagine some other non technical group within Tesla to receive the blame, I suppose you can, but you are deceiving yourself as it's the engineers making the call.
 
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Who decides and projects how much and what sort of use the battery can take without excessive risk of failure?

This isn't how much horsepower was marketed. This about limiting the highst level of discharge to launch mode.

This is a technical issue about how to best protect the battery. The entire bms has lots of dials to turn, cooling and heating and charging rate and discharge rate. I trust their decisions on what is best.

I'm not going to try to hack or avoid what they think are overall improvements to the bms.

If you want to imagine some other non technical group within Tesla to receive the blame, I suppose you can, but you are deceiving yourself as it's the engineers making the call.
Engineers provide technology and information, not marketing and policy decisions.
 
Engineers provide technology and information, not marketing and policy decisions.
Which policy or marketing decision that does not depend on the tchnology do you disagree with?

I'm talking about the engineering decision to limit the highest discharge rate at a certain level , and then also to limit that rate to only be available in launch mode.

That is not a "marketing" decision. "Policy" is such a vague word as to be useless in this context, so I can only ask what specific decision you disagree with if not the technical decision to limit discharge rates as I described above.
 
.......except that none of the things you underlined are correct.

Asserting it doesn't make it so, or make it persuasive to others. Funny that you would not take that opportunity to say anything even remotely in defense of yourself.

For instance, what damages have you substantiated? You deny that Tesla is correct when they say you have not substantiated any damages. So what substantiation of your damages did you provide to them?
 
Which policy or marketing decision that does not depend on the tchnology do you disagree with?

I'm talking about the engineering decision to limit the highest discharge rate at a certain level , and then also to limit that rate to only be available in launch mode.

That is not a "marketing" decision. "Policy" is such a vague word as to be useless in this context, so I can only ask what specific decision you disagree with if not the technical decision to limit discharge rates as I described above.

Bhzmark, I can tell from your comments you are being genuine. Let me try to explain what has happened here since I think your background is not in the auto industry (legal?)

Let's say GM decides to make a special, 700hp camaro. During development the engineers will have no trouble building a test mule that makes 700hp from the existing supercharged vehicle. The team will know from previous testing the static torque limit of the transmission, differential, drive and axle shafts, etc. They will also have some estimates of the durability of these components at different load levels. They will then perform extensive testing to understand if these parts need to be upgraded to withstand the new power levels. When they get a failure mode that is within the estimated warranty period, they will either improve the failed component, or decrease the load (reduce the power level, etc.) so that the failure rate is within the established (company policy) limit. For low volume, this often means accepting higher planned warranty repair cost...it is a balance of concerns and costs and each market segment requires a different balance.

ALL these decisions happen BEFORE the vehicle is sold to the customer. If, after 6 months, GM finds out the new model destroys it's transmission in 5000 miles, they get to pay for warranty repair for a lot of Camaros. The cost of that type of mistake could easily wipe out 100% of the profit from such a project. That level of fail is very rare because the ramifications are so serious for the company.
THAT'S WHY THEY DO THE TESTING BEFORE THEY SELL THE VEHICLE.

What they DON'T get to do, is ask everyone to bring their car back to the dealer so it can be detuned to only make 650hp in the interest of GM's warranty cost.

Here's what happened in Tesla's case (and maybe someone can help me with the numbers). Tesla developed a P90D vehicle that made X kW and achieved a 2.X sec 0-60 launch. One can only assume they tested and accepted the cost estimated for that level of power.

Next, someone...who's name likely rhymes with 'Leon Husk'...decided it would be a great idea to increase the power level of the hardware to X kW and achieve a 2.X sec 0-60. Testing showed some hardware changes were required (fuse pack?). They announce the Ludicrous mode and start selling vehicles (and retrofits), Unfortunately, it seems the increased loads of the launch are creating more failures in the market than planned. (My suspicion is that the engineers involved had a pretty accurate idea of what would be failing and said as much.) So obviously, Tesla failed to properly test this product (the aptly named, ludicrous upgrade) and now wish they could change the product to save themselves some warranty cost and bad reputation that usually follows companies that release products that break.

Their first idea, you will recall, was to simply reduce the power available to below what was initially claimed. That was turning into a PR disaster, so soon Mr. Tweets indicated they had learned that lesson and would revert to the original power level. Let's pause for a minute and dwell on what happened there. In the face of bad press, Tesla changed course. Your assertion that this AG complaint or small claims case is a waste of time seems to ignore this clear evidence to the contrary.

Unfortunately, when they finally did update the power to originally advertised levels, they added some other BS to make the power beyond access unless the customer jumps through hoops to engage a launch mode. A different means to their end, and possibly a legal defense. But in this court of public opinion, it will continue to irritate anyone who was ripped off by such bait and switch tactics.
 
That is not a decision that an engineer makes. I don't know how to make it any clearer that engineers do not have that role.

Assertions without reasoning and logic and evidence are not persuasive.
Engineers determined/projected/calculated that if you leave the discharge rate at that level it will change the meantime btw failure rate in certain way. That is their call. I trust their judgment to keep us all on the right side of lower mtbf rates.

And btw, every decision Elon Musk makes is the decision of an engineer. Early Career Engineers, Conferences and Careers
 
@bhzmark

The point @brianman is making is, ultimately it is the management of Tesla and their product/sales planning that is the driving force behind many of the features they decide to ship.

It does not seem unlikely that at times they will go over the heads of the engineers and engineering suggestions to do whatever they think needs to be done, be it AP2 or P85D HP or 90 kWh Ludicrous/Countrers or whatnot. For example, I seriously doubt it was the engineers that outlined to Elon Musk what he should say about the EAP/AP2 timeline in October 2016. I do not find that likely.

Sure, at times the management may be failed by engineering giving them wrong info, but frankly with Tesla's history, I find it more likely that management is not giving the engineering sufficient time to validate certain things (with the break-neck pace of change in the production product, because sales needs constant demand levers - and for some reason are forbidden from using the traditional ones: ads and pricing) and/or is pretty much ignoring engineering advice when other considerations demand it.

Just speculation of course. But it seems quite likely to me that management hubris can override engineering diligence.
 
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