Nav 8.0 - UI not made for driving

[Jrrussom11]

Hey, I know!

In the same way you need to hold the wheel or get nagged at, the car should nag at you if you use the touchscreen while moving, and after 3 nags lock you out of it until you stop the car.

 

[Jrrussom11]

Having just driven to NY from L.A. with ver 7.1 and back with ver 8, I had numerous problems with 8.
Ver 8 re-routed me unnecessarily several times. Notably, from Denver to the supercharger at Silverthorne. It nagged me to get off of I-70, and took me for a non-joy ride until it lost the connection and I manually re-routed. I didn't have any of these problems with v7.
The music player was very difficult to use while driving with v8. Many times I just gave up and let whatever came on play.
Also, my car seems to reboot whenever it feels like it-- most disconcerting!!
--Model S 85D Oct 2016

 

[HankLloydRight]

Very well put @bob_p

Thanks for posting. Have you sent that to [email protected]?

 

[bob_p]

Yes, I've been reporting software issues to Tesla since receiving our P85 in early 2013.

And each time, they provide a polite "Thank you, I'll forward this to the development team" response.

And sometimes the issues actually get fixed (eventually).

 

[Aieukl378]

Really like the hidden icons...nice and clean.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Did you not read the rest of my post that further explained the concept of "voting with your wallet" if you feel you're not getting what you expect...???

Beginning this year, many will be voting with their wallets by purchasing the GM Bolt. I'm reading posts all over social media by Model 3 reservation holders who are ready to buy a GM Bolt. Steve Wozniak is already selling his Model X because he prefers the added convenience features of the GM Bolt (Carplay, Android Auto, etc.).

Once there are bonafide alternatives for sale, Tesla will suffer if they don't change their way. Perhaps that's what Tesla needs, a nice kick in the pants with order cancellations and a new kid on the block taking away some of Tesla's marbles.

I do though have to wonder with some of the choices being made since 7 came into being, is there a similar UI leader in place now that advocates and has clout for functionality WITH usability, or has that perhaps been deprioritized and taken a back seat as AP and other pet projects move to the front of the line. Again, I'm appreciative of continual updates with improved functionality, and none of us will know the real answer, but the deliverables I've recently received with perhaps a little less quality from my POV, do make me wonder.

Getting back to the early complaints, I, too feel the earlier Tesla software had a very well defined UI model - which was consistent across all of the apps. And while the functionality was limited, it was pretty intuitive to use even while driving.
8.0 breaks that. Activities that were simple before have become more complicated (or even much more difficult to do). Map to music, to podcast, to EV planner are now impossible unless the passenger is Tesla-experienced.

Brennan Boblett was Tesla's senior UI designer since 2010, prior to that he was a senior designer at Apple. He left in late 2015 or early 2016 to join Faraday Future, and most recently jumped ship to Uber in May of this year. Brennan would have been responsible for 6.x, which I feel was Tesla's best UI implementation. For what it was, it worked. It was fast. And it required a minimum of driver distraction. Buttons were big, we knew exactly what was or wasn't actionable. Now it feels as though we have inexperienced teen-agers designing Tesla's software on a Wii-U.

Brennan's history at Apple would explain why Tesla's software was so much more intuitive in 2013, when I purchased my car.

 

[jeffro01]

Beginning this year, many will be voting with their wallets by purchasing the GM Bolt. I'm reading posts all over social media by Model 3 reservation holders who are ready to buy a GM Bolt. Steve Wozniak is already selling his Model X because he prefers the added convenience features of the GM Bolt (Carplay, Android Auto, etc.).

Once there are bonafide alternatives for sale, Tesla will suffer if they don't change their way. Perhaps that's what Tesla needs, a nice kick in the pants with order cancellations and a new kid on the block taking away some of Tesla's marbles.

Brennan Boblett was Tesla's senior UI designer since 2010, prior to that he was a senior designer at Apple. He left in late 2015 or early 2016 to join Faraday Future, and most recently jumped ship to Uber in May of this year. Brennan would have been responsible for 6.x, which I feel was Tesla's best UI implementation. For what it was, it worked. It was fast. And it required a minimum of driver distraction. Buttons were big, we knew exactly what was or wasn't actionable. Now it feels as though we have inexperienced teen-agers designing Tesla's software on a Wii-U.

Brennan's history at Apple would explain why Tesla's software was so much more intuitive in 2013, when I purchased my car.

Personal choice is awesome... Personally I find it laughable anyone with any sense at all would buy a Bolt. Not because they should buy a Tesla or any other "you should buy X" reason, it's about GMs history with EVs and the reality of their dealership network where only a select few can actually work on the car. Lots of people are going to buy Bolts from Chevy dealerships that can't service the car... It'll be interesting to see how that works out... That and GMs aggressive stance against Tesla and it's right to sell it's product. If people want to support a company like GM, that's their choice. I'll never buy another vehicle from them again, ever.

That being said, despite the push back against my thought process around this, I still believe for those of you who are that unhappy with Tesla look to purchasing something else. I genuinely believe that's the only way you'll get your point across.

The more I drive with v8 the more I like it. Change is hard on some people, it's basic human nature. Those of you who who have a fondness for v6 likely think that way because that's what shipped with your car. Had Tesla not had the USB music issue, the complaints on v8 would have been wayyyy less. That's on Tesla for sure, but if you slice that issue off, the only real complaint left is the map/UI presentation which is extremely subjective.

Jeff

 

[BertL]

Personal choice is awesome... Personally I find it laughable anyone with any sense at all would buy a Bolt. Not because they should buy a Tesla or any other "you should buy X" reason, it's about GMs history with EVs and the reality of their dealership network where only a select few can actually work on the car. Lots of people are going to buy Bolts from Chevy dealerships that can't service the car... It'll be interesting to see how that works out... That and GMs aggressive stance against Tesla and it's right to sell it's product. If people want to support a company like GM, that's their choice. I'll never buy another vehicle from them again, ever.

That being said, despite the push back against my thought process around this, I still believe for those of you who are that unhappy with Tesla look to purchasing something else. I genuinely believe that's the only way you'll get your point across.

The more I drive with v8 the more I like it. Change is hard on some people, it's basic human nature. Those of you who who have a fondness for v6 likely think that way because that's what shipped with your car. Had Tesla not had the USB music issue, the complaints on v8 would have been wayyyy less. That's on Tesla for sure, but if you slice that issue off, the only real complaint left is the map/UI presentation which is extremely subjective.

Jeff

Perhaps. I understand your POV. ...for some of us though, we've had a number of other issues with 8.0 beyond USB, e.g. I've had so many scary "truck lust" situations that I never had before, I have effectively stopped use of Autosteer when there are semi's around, and I'm leary of using it with higher left-hand barriers because it likes to hug more than I experienced on the same roads with 7.1. I get that it's new tech with the radar-bias, but my general problem is from my personal experience, Tesla did not demonstrate increased QUALITY and a FOCUS ON THE CUSTOMER with some of it's choices like I expect it should by now. It's one thing back-in-the-day as a start-up building a smaller number of vehicles, but as volumes and the number of models Tesla builds continue to increase, I expect even more precision in terms of those two things in preparation for what is to come with M3. After-the-fact Service can't deal with the volume if problems and customer reaction is not better anticipated to begin with.

Not related to 8.0, but on that focus on the customer point, today marks day 15 my MS has been sitting untouched, parked outside my SvC waiting to get it's first prepaid annual service done, after I made an appointment 6 weeks in advance. I have a BMW loaner which is fine, but I want my own MS back for other things, and just hate seeing a cash-poor company I care about wasting rental money to Enterprise this way. It's clear Tesla does not have sufficient service capacity to deal with today, let alone tomorrow.

Tesla has to get this quality and customer-centric thing going. They are behind from my POV, and both things need to be demonstrated rapidly so we all don't crash and burn as M3 begins hitting the streets.

 

[jeffro01]

Perhaps. I understand your POV. ...for some of us though, we've had a number of other issues with 8.0 beyond USB, e.g. I've had so many scary "truck lust" situations that I never had before, I have effectively stopped use of Autosteer when there are semi's around, and I'm leary of using it with higher left-hand barriers because it likes to hug more than I experienced on the same roads with 7.1. I get that it's new tech with the radar-bias, but my general problem is from my personal experience, Tesla did not demonstrate increased QUALITY and a FOCUS ON THE CUSTOMER with some of it's choices like I expect it should by now. It's one thing back-in-the-day as a start-up building a smaller number of vehicles, but as volumes and the number of models Tesla builds continue to increase, I expect even more precision in terms of those two things in preparation for what is to come with M3.

Not related to 8.0, but on that focus on the customer point, today marks day 15 my MS has been sitting untouched, parked outside my SvC waiting to get it's first prepaid annual service done, after I made an appointment 6 weeks in advance. I have a BMW loaner which is fine, but I want my own MS back for other things, and just hate seeing a cash-poor company I care about wasting rental money to Enterprise this way. It's clear Tesla does not have sufficient service capacity to deal with today, let alone tomorrow.

Tesla has to get this quality and customer-centric thing going. They are behind from my POV, and both things need to be demonstrated rapidly so we all don't crash and burn as M3 begins hitting the streets.

OMG... I think this is a first... I think I 100% agree with your post... Granted I don't seem to have the barrier wall issue but my car has always had "truck lust"...

The rest, yep, not even going to mention as I 100% agree... Despite being called a fanboy by some, I have very serious and real issues/concerns with Tesla service that I have brought up here multiple times. I'd be furious if my car was sitting for 15 days simply for it's annual service as that's 15 days I'm paying for the lease and getting zero in return. Don't even get me started on not having enough loaners in the first place forcing people into ICEs...

Tesla can, and hopefully, will do better in all of these phases going forward. If not, eventually they will crash into a wall, figuratively speaking, and by then the damage will already have been done. I try to stay objective which is why I tend to comment negatively on some of the posts here which I think are unreasonable and that gets taken by some to mean I think Tesla is perfect. Far. From. It...

Jeff

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Personal choice is awesome... Personally I find it laughable anyone with any sense at all would buy a Bolt. Not because they should buy a Tesla or any other "you should buy X" reason, it's about GMs history with EVs and the reality of their dealership network where only a select few can actually work on the car. Lots of people are going to buy Bolts from Chevy dealerships that can't service the car... It'll be interesting to see how that works out... That and GMs aggressive stance against Tesla and it's right to sell it's product. If people want to support a company like GM, that's their choice. I'll never buy another vehicle from them again, ever.

That being said, despite the push back against my thought process around this, I still believe for those of you who are that unhappy with Tesla look to purchasing something else. I genuinely believe that's the only way you'll get your point across.

The more I drive with v8 the more I like it. Change is hard on some people, it's basic human nature. Those of you who who have a fondness for v6 likely think that way because that's what shipped with your car. Had Tesla not had the USB music issue, the complaints on v8 would have been wayyyy less. That's on Tesla for sure, but if you slice that issue off, the only real complaint left is the map/UI presentation which is extremely subjective.

Jeff

I love my Model S, I just don't love some of the things that Tesla is doing. Many of us here are not fond of GM - myself included - but I have to give them credit with the Bolt. They did an amazing job from what I've been able to see and read about the vehicle. My larger point is that once there is competition, customers will cross-shop much in the same way they already do today with non-EVs. My reason for pre-ordering the Model 3 is because there is nowhere else to go for that kind of range, and Tesla benefits from its position as the sole supplier of such a vehicle. But that advantage is going to disappear soon. Bolt was just one example, but more are likely coming in the next 2-3 years.

I'm trying really hard to like version 8 UI... trying...

 

[jeffro01]

I love my Model S, I just don't love some of the things that Tesla is doing. Many of us here are not fond of GM - myself included - but I have to give them credit with the Bolt. They did an amazing job from what I've been able to see and read about the vehicle. My larger point is that once there is competition, customers will cross-shop much in the same way they already do today with non-EVs. My reason for pre-ordering the Model 3 is because there is nowhere else to go for that kind of range, and Tesla benefits from its position as the sole supplier of such a vehicle. But that advantage is going to disappear soon. Bolt was just one example, but more are likely coming in the next 2-3 years.

I'm trying really hard to like version 8 UI... trying...

Fair enough...

In all seriousness, and this one isn't about what I want, I think it'd be helpful if Tesla would at least give some UI control options to those users who don't want the map taking up so much space, or who don't want the map control icons to auto hide. Giving people some basic options is a good thing.

Jeff

 

[mnewman]

I'm with you, Jeff. Even Windows have a checkbox for "Autobide the task bar." Tesla should have the same option.

The other thing about 8.0 that bugs the stink out of me is that now some apps default to the top, where others default to the bottom. Now THAT'S bad UI design!

 

[flashflood]

I'm with you, Jeff. Even Windows have a checkbox for "Autobide the task bar." Tesla should have the same option.

The other thing about 8.0 that bugs the stink out of me is that now some apps default to the top, where others default to the bottom. Now THAT'S bad UI design!

Tesla is going through the same thing Apple did with the iPhone, but at about 1/10 the speed because cars are more complex than phones:

(1) Tesla introduces revolutionary electric car -- not the first electric, but the first really good electric. The iPhone moment.
(2) Tesla promises apps but doesn't deliver. The App Store saga (still ongoing, sadly).
(3) Tesla solves problems no one has (map one inch too small) and refuses to fix problems everyone has (vanity light).
(4) Bolt and others come along -- initially not as good, but cheaper, and more customizable. The Android moment.

 

[artsci]

From what I hear, Elon is the UI product manager. He is providing the direction, the engineers are mocking up a few options, and Elon chooses the one be mikes.

If that's correct, in this case Elon blew it big time.

 

[Dborn]

Here is another admittedly very tiny nit, the phone icon. Cell because no one uses old fashioned telephones. Now it looks like a square and difficult to touch in a hurry while driving. This is design change for no good reason. We don't have a browser at all in Australia so I can't comment about that. I agree with the OP.
They removed outside temp display from the status bar with ver 7. Why? There is still plenty of space up there even now. Yes I did write in and request reinstatement. Don't like the auto hide feature.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

From what I hear, Elon is the UI product manager. He is providing the direction, the engineers are mocking up a few options, and Elon chooses the one be mikes. He needs to delegate, and hire people with UI experience. The UI can't be built for one person. It needs to be flexible.

If true, I wonder what makes Elon think that he is qualified to make decisions surrounding the UI? Clearly he is not.

 

[Boatguy]

Back to the navigation UI and v8 "enhancements". While stuck in traffic in my Thanksgiving travels I was reflecting on the differences between the Navigation UI and that of a Chart Plotter on a boat which is the functional equivalent. A couple of things came to mind.

1) A boat chart plotter (aka plotter), puts the boat about 2/3 down the screen, so 2/3 of the display is showing what is in front of the boat, and 1/3 is showing what is behind the boat. The area behind the boat is important since it can show boats (or more importantly ships) that might be overtaking the boat and thus present a potential danger.

Tesla puts the car in the middle of the screen and there is no useful information behind the car; half the display is entirely wasted. This makes the decision to hide the top half of the display with the map even more idiotic. We effectively gained only half the height of the hidden icon strip, maybe 1/2" more map area. Had they simply moved the car icon to have 2/3 of the display in front of the car, and 1/3 behind the car, we could still have the full icon strip, and we'd gain much more useful map area, being able to see traffic conditions further ahead without need to manually pan or zoom the map, then reset it to automatically track the car.

2) The lack of waypoints is just absurd for the world's only long distance EV. The on board "trip planner" (still in beta after how long?) routes through a supercharger if needed. In my case this caused it to select a route which would bypass a needed interim stop (aka waypoint) with no way to tell it take another route, which would have then led to a different supercharger; it's the Tesla route, or no route. The bottom line was that the on board navigation system was of no use and I returned to EVTripPlanner on my laptop to route my $100,000 EV. Why is it not possible for Tesla to simply replicate the work of a university undergraduate? This is functionality I had on my boat 20yrs ago!

3) A boat sailing in the ocean has a motion similar to a car going down the road. It's generally smooth, but a fingertip at the end of an extended arm is not a precision tool. Yet the UI of the CID (all functions) continues to use buttons sized about like they are on an iPad that I use when not in motion, and certainly not while also driving.
​

I could go on and on about other deficiencies in the CID applications because none of the apps is of sufficient quality to be economically viable as $10 smartphone app, yet they are supplied with a $100,000 car.

 

[neroden]

Note to Tesla UI Team:

Give me back the D*** bar at the top of the screen.

I am driving... I used t be able to see and to hit the icons in one tap... Now I have to tap the screen, wait for a refresh... then go hunt for the button?

Oh good god. I am never updating to 8.0 and I will sue if they update it at the Service Center. This is an actual road hazard.

You know we are driving when we are using this thing, right?

Indeed.

Agree with OP 100%

Ditto.

 

[scottm]

To test UI for driving (topic of this thread) .. you have to actually drive it. Tesla should be able to afford road testing and QA of the center console UI.. But with a suitable test station rig don't need to hit the road.

Maybe house a real center stack from a car (not a mockup on an iPad or computer screen) in a rig and make it capable of moving a few inches of vertical and horizontal planes.. and put that sucker in motion 'randomly'.. subtly, and reasonably to simulate a driving car typical motion with realistic jarring bumps and jiggles and sway

Now put a fixed steering wheel and IC in front of every tester. Home position of hands is on the wheel. When both hands are returned to wheel, and eyes straight forward (video monitored) another test can start. Performance timer begins when hand is removed from the wheel. Stopwatch stops when hand is returned to wheel.

Test instructions pop up on the IC (where warnings appear) randomized or course. Mixed in with typical driving inputs that are NOT on the UI center stack... typical stuff:

"split temperatures 65 Left 75 Right"
"ensure AC is turned OFF"
"turn OFF all dome lights"
"signal LEFT"
"turn ON all heated seats"
"select LOW Beams only if High Beams are on"
"ROTATE split screens top / bottom"
"CANCEL garage door opening"
"select rear view camera"
"navigate HOME"
"engage PARK"
"adjust VOLUME +4"
"turn ON hazard lights"
"turn ON parking lights only"
...

Record every attempted hit of a UI control to those that actually scored on first try... with the screen moving at any time, a little, or a lot!

This would breed bigger visible targets and target area acceptance, encourage pokes over continuous motions (slides, swipes), use of color and shape variety.. and on and on..

You want it darker... ?

Darken the room, Set screen brightness at 20% or lower. Hang a bare 40 Watt bulb at eye height behind the test rig, cycles randomly, duration random. Testers put on clear lens glasses smeared with Vaseline, then wiped off, but not cleaned any more than that.
Tester wears leather gloves with touch-device fingertip contact pads on index finger and thumb only. Add a 2 pound strap-on weight to forearm.

Mix it up...

Put the center stack on the left of the tester.
What was convenient for a righty, is it still OK for a lefty?

Swap color pallets on screen red for green, browns for pinks, typical color blindness combos.

More Pure fun...

Drop a new release / changed feature on the console at any time during the session and continue testing.
(How well do people adjust on the fly to an OTA change?) This would breed "intuitive approach".

 

[Dborn]

To test UI for driving (topic of this thread) .. you have to actually drive it. Tesla should be able to afford road testing and QA of the center console UI..

But with a suitable test station rig don't need to hit the road...

Maybe house a real center stack from a car (not a mockup on an iPad or computer screen) ... and make the rig capable of a few inches of vertical and horizontal motion.. and keep that sucker moving 'randomly'.. subtly, and reasonably to simulate a driving car typical motion with realistic jarring bumps and jiggles and sway

Now put a fixed steering wheel and IC in front of every tester. Home position of hands is on the wheel. When both hands are returned to wheel, and eyes straight forward (video monitored) another test can start. Performance timer begins when hand is removed from the wheel. Stopwatch stops when hand is returned to wheel.

Test instructions pop up on the IC (where warnings appear) randomized or course. Mixed in with typical driving inputs that are NOT on the UI center stack... typical stuff:

"split temperatures 65 Left 75 Right"
"ensure AC is turned OFF"
"turn OFF all dome lights"
"signal LEFT"
"turn ON all heated seats"
"select LOW Beams only if High Beams are on"
"ROTATE split screens top / bottom"
"CANCEL garage door opening"
"select rear view camera"
"navigate HOME"
"engage PARK"
"adjust VOLUME +4"
"turn ON hazard lights"
"turn ON parking lights only"
...

Record every attempted hit of a UI control to those that actually scored on first try... with the screen moving at any time, a little, or a lot!

This would breed bigger visible targets and target area acceptance, encourage pokes over continuous motions (slides, swipes), use of color and shape variety.. and on and on..

You want it darker... ?

Darken the room, Set screen brightness at 50%. Hang a bare 40 Watt bulb at eye height behind the test rig, cycles randomly, duration random. Testers put on clear lens glasses smeared with Vaseline, then wiped off, but not cleaned any more than that.
Tester wears leather gloves with touch-device fingertip contact pads on index finger and thumb only. Add a 2 pound strap-on weight to forearm.

Mix it up...

Put the center stack on the left of the tester.
What was convenient for a righty, is it still OK for a lefty?

Swap color pallets on screen red for green, browns for pinks, typical color blindness combos.

More Pure fun...

Drop a new release / changed feature on the console at any time during the session and continue testing.
(How well do people adjust on the fly to an OTA change?) This would breed "intuitive approach".

And bring in random owners to do the testing, not staff members. They could have a panel, even paid a nominal amount for their time to come in for an hour at a time to do this market research. Need a statistician to determine a statistically significant number of tests, and, of course, a spread in the age groups involved.