Neat trick to pass on unlimited supercharging to the next owner

[mswlogo]

If you're concerned with ethics: when I got my car, free unlimited supercharging lasted "the life of the car." IMO, if I trade my car into Tesla and they remove FUSC, it is they who are being unethical.

I also remember "free forever." This quote I found:

So let's say you installed a $10K subwoofer in the car. And Tesla buys that car back (at an agreed price between both party's).
Now Tesla, the owner, decides to remove the subwoofer, publish that it was removed and sell the car, perhaps at a lower price, that's unethical?

Tesla saying it stays with car has NOTHING to do with buying the car back and changing the options on it.
If it was advertised to the new owner that it does have FUSC and then doesn't then you have a case.

Now you could argue if changing hands through a 3rd party dealer also removes FUSC then you have a point.
But once it's in Tesla's hands (the owner) they can do what ever they want.

 

[Krash]

…over the course of the next 8 years free supercharging will save me $25k…

It really varies widely.

If you live near a hydroelectric dam and your incremental cost of power is $0.03 kWh and you never road trip and have a garage with an outlet that charges your car every night. Or maybe you can charge at work, no big deal.

But if you live where electricity is $0.18 kWh you will pay even more if your utility subsidizes some users with small bills by charging more at the top tiers of usage. In other words the average may be $0.18 but you may pay double that for extra energy use for your own charger. Similarly if you can’t install a charger at home or work and have to rely on superchargers, some were $0.34 a couple of years ago.

$0.34 kWh * 65 kw * 142 times a year * 8 years = $25,000

Not that any cost justifies misrepresenting an ownership transfer, but the math pencils. For some people those late 2016 cars with transferable free supercharging and FSD will eventually be worth a lot more than their 2017 and 2015 counterparts.

 

[airborne spoon]

Lol, internet math is the best

I did the math on a spreadsheet, it's on my work computer when I go in on Monday I'll post it here for you.

It really varies widely.
...Snip..

Yes it varies for everyone, this is a fact.

I travel a lot so free SC is super important and very valuable to me.

The cost of power at the house should not even fall into that equation because SC is for traveling not to be your personal power plug if it's close to your house.

I have free electricity and the need to SC is necessary since the nearest town is 45 min each way which eats up 25% SoC each way. Meaning to just go to town and grab In-N-Out and come back will take at least 50% of my battery. The cost of charging at home doesn't come into the equation. But when I go to the second town out which is another 25 mon past the nearest one then I need to SC and that is why free SC is necessary even for not taking trips but still taking a trip.

But to be a lazy POS that has a SC in like 10 min of the house to charge there instead of at home is just pathetic and not worth the time. In my last house my power bill went up $100 a month average after buying the Tesla. Now yes $1200/yr seems like a lot till you realize that's chump change compared to dumb *sugar* people buy like cable, Hulu, Netflix, Disney, etc. Which is about $115/month for the average American household. If you cut that crap off, (because there is free options) it negates the car electric bill. And there is plenty of other crap that could be cut to equalize the bill in the end. People just don't like to budget properly anymore.

 

[ucmndd]

I did the math on a spreadsheet, it's on my work computer when I go in on Monday I'll post it here for you.

Yes it varies for everyone, this is a fact.

I travel a lot so free SC is super important and very valuable to me.

Your math implies at current CA supercharger costs of $0.40/kWh you’re driving ~26,000 miles a year, every year for 8 years, on trips where you’re dependent on supercharging (i.e. not within range of home).

I mean, if you actually do that, every year for 8 years, good on you I guess? That would be quite the extraordinary use case.

 

[dmurphy]

FUSC is definitely not valueless, but it’s not break-the-bank either.

We’ve done about 10,000 miles road tripping in our Model X over the last 16 months, Supercharging along the way. Averaging 300wh/mi, that’s 3000kWh. At an average of 29c/kWH, that’s $870 in cost avoidance.

So not $0, but not “wow I’m getting rich” savings either. Perfectly reasonable, and if I lost FUSC, I’d grumble a bit and then suck it up.

 

[airborne spoon]

Your math implies at current CA supercharger costs of $0.40/kWh you’re driving ~26,000 miles a year, every year for 8 years, on trips where you’re dependent on supercharging (i.e. not within range of home).

I mean, if you actually do that, every year for 8 years, good on you I guess? That would be quite the extraordinary use case.

Driving is cheaper than flying and only takes a smidge longer, at least for the So-Cal to Nor-Cal trips I take along with all the other trips. I do whatever is possible to save a few bucks.

And with gas getting more expensive I am riding the Harley less because it needs 91 octane and that *sugar* is $4.77. So even more usage of the car and the SC network now.

 

[whitex]

Free supercharging is amazing and one of the reasons I'll never sell my car.
I've done the math and over the course of the next 8 years free supercharging will save me $25k. So it's not just pinching pennies that's a shitload of cash saved

Could you share that math with the rest of us? I am really curious how you arrived at that number.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Your math implies at current CA supercharger costs of $0.40/kWh you’re driving ~26,000 miles a year, every year for 8 years, on trips where you’re dependent on supercharging (i.e. not within range of home).

I mean, if you actually do that, every year for 8 years, good on you I guess? That would be quite the extraordinary use case.

Here is my math which I have posted but will regenerate for you guys.

Yes CA electricity is creeping up to $0.4 per KWh. I'll average it at $0.25 because that is the super low overnight cost.

I use about 300wh/mi over the life of model s.

Assuming 15K miles per year.

120K miles over the 8 years
That is equal to 36MWh

Factor in vampire drain on the car. I find I have to charge about 15Kwh more every week or so than what my kwh usage meter shows to get the the same percentage again each charging sesssion. Yes this is high because I have a dashcam on all the time and the charger kicks in and out.
8 years of vampire drain = 6.24MWh.

Total = 42.24MWh.

Factor in 90% charging efficiency, you will see 46.93MWh at the wall.

At $0.25 per kwh, you are looking at $11,733.

Now keep in mind that number above is assuming $0.25 per kwh and 120K miles in 8 years. If the cost is $0.4 like most of the supercharging cost here in CA, you are looking at $18,733.

So $25K might be believable if you drive more than 15K miles per year or electricity goes even higher down the road.

 

[airborne spoon]

Here is my math which I have posted but will regenerate for you guys.

Yes CA electricity is creeping up to $0.4 per KWh. I'll average it at $0.25 because that is the super low overnight cost.

SNIP

You're mixing apples and oranges there bro. You are talking about overnight costs and charging at the house. This thread is about Supercharger use and cost.

 

[ucmndd]

You're mixing apples and oranges there bro. You are talking about overnight costs and charging at the house. This thread is about Supercharger use and cost.

Right, but that cost of charging at home is what you’re actually “saving” with free supercharging most of the time.

If I can charge at home for 10 cents/kWh but have free supercharging so I drive down the street to charge there, I haven’t “saved” the $0.40/kWh retail price of the supercharger, I’ve saved the $0.10/kWh I avoided at home.

That’s what I was getting at in my original response - you’re only really saving the full retail price of the supercharging if you 1) don’t have home charging, or 2) are too far from home to charge there.

 

[dmurphy]

Right, but that cost of charging at home is what you’re actually “saving” with free supercharging most of the time.

If I can charge at home for 10 cents/kWh but have free supercharging so I drive down the street to charge there, I haven’t “saved” the $0.40/kWh retail price of the supercharger, I’ve saved the $0.10/kWh I avoided at home.

That’s what I was getting at in my original response - you’re only really saving the full retail price of the supercharging if you 1) don’t have home charging, or 2) are too far from home to charge there.

Spot on. That’s why I call FUSC a “cost avoidance” vs a “savings” tactic.

 

[airborne spoon]

Right, but that cost of charging at home is what you’re actually “saving” with free supercharging most of the time.

If I can charge at home for 10 cents/kWh but have free supercharging so I drive down the street to charge there, I haven’t “saved” the $0.40/kWh retail price of the supercharger, I’ve saved the $0.10/kWh I avoided at home.

That’s what I was getting at in my original response - you’re only really saving the full retail price of the supercharging if you 1) don’t have home charging, or 2) are too far from home to charge there.

Supercharging is for traveling thus it can't be compared to home charging.

 

[airborne spoon]

Spot on. That’s why I call FUSC a “cost avoidance” vs a “savings” tactic.

Its cost savings because I don't have to pay for anything when I take my 400 mile trips all the time. If I didn't have free SC then it would cost me money. You can't put home charging anywhere in this equation.

 

[dmurphy]

Its cost savings because I don't have to pay for anything when I take my 400 mile trips all the time. If I didn't have free SC then it would cost me money. You can't put home charging anywhere in this equation.

Ahh - but that’s YOUR use case. There are many (esp. in California) who use Supercharging as their primary means of charging - and for them, it’s about avoiding the cost of home charging. So yes, it’s fair to consider that as cost avoidance because if Supercharging were more expensive, they’d simply charge at home.

That said … I consider it cost avoidance even on a road trip. I mean, I *could* be paying for fuel in a dinojuice burner, after all …

So if I calculate Supercharging for my 10k miles of road tripping:
10,000 miles * .3kWh/mi * $.29/kWh =
$870

If we drove our former Buick, that would have been:
10,000 miles / 18 mpg * $3.49/gal = $1,938.88

Hence, my cost avoidance by driving EV vs Gasoline = ($1938.88 - $870) = $1,068.88

My cost avoidance by driving EV *and* having FUSC is $1,938.88, as driving the Buick was the alternative.

 

[ucmndd]

Its cost savings because I don't have to pay for anything when I take my 400 mile trips all the time. If I didn't have free SC then it would cost me money. You can't put home charging anywhere in this equation.

… and you take ~70 of those 400 mile trips a year (ignoring for simplicity’s sake the fact that you probably start each trip with a “full tank” from home)?

Like I said earlier, good on you if you can actually rack up ~28,000 miles of free supercharging a year. I’d never sell my car either. But surely you must understand what an outlier that case is in the value spectrum.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

You're mixing apples and oranges there bro. You are talking about overnight costs and charging at the house. This thread is about Supercharger use and cost.

Yeah I understand your point, but like others have said, unless you roadtrip everyday, you can't really use supercharging rates. In any case, as you can see, it is still pretty expensive over the life of the car but not to your level. I think for me, the car needs to last up to around 600K miles for me to get my car for free. : ) however I seriously doubt the battery will last that long.

 

[airborne spoon]

Sorry I forgot to post my math the other day. anyway my original calculation was for 10 years so I changed it to 8 years but its still $20k.
I use Superchargers about 70% of the time and I got that figure from SMT and looking at the DC total charges and the AC total charges.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

Right, but that cost of charging at home is what you’re actually “saving” with free supercharging most of the time.

If I can charge at home for 10 cents/kWh but have free supercharging so I drive down the street to charge there, I haven’t “saved” the $0.40/kWh retail price of the supercharger, I’ve saved the $0.10/kWh I avoided at home.

That’s what I was getting at in my original response - you’re only really saving the full retail price of the supercharging if you 1) don’t have home charging, or 2) are too far from home to charge there.

but free supercharging is free!....your saving is that you dont have to pay for it.....either at home or at the supercharger....that was part of my cars sales price......I dont understand why all of us that use it are condemned for it....why do you say it is only for road trips......it free means I can use it anytime I want......I am not trying to be a flippant, but it just so happens it is part of my car and I plan to use it whenever I want in addition to any home top-offs......so what wrong with that?

some say you are blocking it for those that really need to charge for road trips.......well, what's gonna be the excuse when non-tesla car start pulling in to charge