I Would think the auto-select gearing would only be active if you are in AP mode, so the X can determine the best direction as well as obstacles. If not, then manual selection as now.
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New design - With no stalks how do you change directions or signal?
- Thread starter jboy210
- Start date
it’s not like the stalk has a mechanical connection to anything in the drivetrain. It’s just a switch.
the description said there would be buttons on the console. Leaf has selector in the console. Manual transmission cars have a selector on the console.
automatic direction selection though just sounds like a problem.
I don’t believe that is accurate. There have been cars in the market with steer-by-wire for several years with no mechanical connection to the wheels.
Infiniti's New Steering System Is a Big Step Forward—Unless You Love Cars
Here’s an article from 2014.
Bet TSLA
Active Member
Most of the complaints here are implicitly preceded by "Assuming Tesla engineers are a bunch of idiots...." and followed by "assuming I understand things correctly, which I don't."
Let's hope that is the case. But even if it is, I want a stick or other control I can operate by feel rather than having to find a button to press. You want your eyes outside while making a 3 point turn or fitting into a tight parking spot.
46&2
Member
They got to collect data for once the cars are supposed to drive all alone. Os car guesses, drivers correct -> event report sent to the mothership.
I expect it to be easier to guess right than many think. Driving slow along a parking lot? Stop after free place is a change to rear.
Stopping while driving, red lights, all the like? Forward 99%.
Thinking about my normal trip to work, I start forward out of my parking at home, have to set back a bit as the turn is to tight for Model S. Then forwards again. 1x backwards into the parking at the office.
After 1 day, the car will get that right every time.
I expect it to be easier to guess right than many think. Driving slow along a parking lot? Stop after free place is a change to rear.
Stopping while driving, red lights, all the like? Forward 99%.
Thinking about my normal trip to work, I start forward out of my parking at home, have to set back a bit as the turn is to tight for Model S. Then forwards again. 1x backwards into the parking at the office.
After 1 day, the car will get that right every time.
henderrj
Active Member
"If Infiniti ever has the guts to go for the lobotomy and strip out the mechanical steering system (it left it in there as a backup), it could cut the car’s weight and boost fuel economy." That backup, I believe, is required by law. It's not that they couldn't do it. The article mentions aviation fly by wire. It erroneously says it's the norm. It is far from so, primarily because of the tremendous challenge in getting it certified. The redundancy is absolutely ridiculous! Most airplanes are still made just like cars are, with mechanical linkage to the "steering" elements.
Nope. Bad ideas are bad ideas, regardless of the quality of the engineering team. See vision-based rain sensors as example #1. It's entirely possible for Tesla to have amazing engineers AND poor design decisions.
thefortunes
Active Member
Unless Tesla changes the way it currently works, your car will not learn anything. The neural net is static - it's not going to learn your driving habits. It will be up to the data scientists in Fremont to update your cars' behavior.
Also, a failure rate of 1% is orders of magnitude too high for something as important as gear selection. It needs to be something like 99.9999%+ accurate or it will end up causing a lot of accidents.
Bet TSLA
Active Member
Well, I guess this is a good example of robustly asserting cluelessness. If the vision-based rain sensors aren't far better than you today, they will be tomorrow. If you don't like the fact that Tesla deploys things before they are perfect, don't get a Tesla.
The comparison isn't between myself and a vision-based system. The comparison is between Tesla's complex, error-prone design and the cheap, effective, ubiquitous rain sensors that other OEMs use. And I strongly doubt a generic vision-based solution will ever be better than a purpose-built infrared sensor - at best it would be equally effective. Until they reach that point, it was a poor design decision, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.
Handwaving away Tesla's design mistakes as "Tesla being Tesla" doesn't do anyone any favors. Ideally they would learn from their mistakes and not over-engineer things in a way that doesn't add value (or detract value).
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Bet TSLA
Active Member
Yeah, you definitely won't ever be happy owning a Tesla. So, why are you wasting your time posting about things that don't concern you? And demonstrating your inadequate grasp of engineering at the same time? No value to anybody.
You do realize that the long list of things that people said they hated and made no sense and couldn't be any good include:
- the Model 3 center screen
- regenerative braking
- automatic high/low beams
- emergency braking
Somehow, you just don't hear that many complaints any more. Braking and high beam modulation are already superhuman in most situations. My experience is that the vision based rain detection is almost perfect now. And given how good Tesla engineering is in general, I expect whatever choices they make with regard to stalks will work out fine. But of course we have yet to see what the system will actually look like, so complaining about it now is pretty much all about demons living in your own head.
In the old days, people had similar reactions to automatic transmissions, taking away their manual chokes, and similar horrors. Fear of the unknown has a long history.
46&2
Member
No.
For FSD, the car will do what the car wants to do, difference between 'want' and 'do' will be 0%, exactly. The errors in what it wants to do should be as low as you think, maybe, for the better...
BUT here, this is about a proposed direction. Removing useless user "clicks". Im very fine with 95%. Take 99 every day.
Ok to answer original question, you put your left arm out the window. Straight for left, crooked up for right. Used to be on the driving test. Going retro. 
Not sure why you're being so defensive and rude. I am perfectly happy with my Tesla right now, and I am well within my rights to criticize features or design choices that I don't like. I'm not sure why that seems to offend you so much. And what exactly demonstrates an inadequate grasp of engineering in my post? Please elaborate and be specific. So far you've just insulted me without bringing up any counter arguments, makes me think you're the one with an inadequate grasp. I'd like to hear your explanation on how a vision based system could be better than a purpose-built infrared sensor.
As for the things you listed, I see and hear plenty of people complain about the lack of binnacle screen on the 3/Y. Many people cite that as a reason for not buying one - you might just be encountering a selection bias if you only read posts from current owners. The other three changes all add some sort of value, whether it's safety or efficiency. My main problem with the lack of stalks and automatic selection is that it doesn't add any value for me. It's changing a simple control scheme that has effectively been perfected, to a more complicated system that will require user monitoring and at some point fail. I don't see that as positive change - maybe you do, and that's great, but I am free to voice my concerns.
When true FSD exists I will be happy to have the car select gears for me. However, at this point, someone has to control the vehicle, and automation can lead to complacency. In a situation where something works 99% of the time, people will become complacent and not check the selected gear. This will lead to accidents where they step on the accelerator and go in the wrong direction. It would need to have an error rate of less than one in a million to be truly safe, IMO.
So even if these situations are rare, my point is that this design change introduces an element of uncertainty that didn't exist before. Maybe that trade off is worth it to some people, but it's not worth it to me.
46&2
Member
Of course this is true, it introduces a new element of uncertainty. It replaces (or enhances
) an element, also: the driver. There are people putting their cars in R instead of D, and vice-versa.By no means am I saying it will be perfect. But:
- I don't know how it will work,
- I think it might be a good idea in some, standard, scenarios,
- I can imagine it asks/doesn't do anything if in a potentially dangerous scenario,
- It might be able to disable it completely,
- It might be able to switch control to the steering whe... yoke, something as rolling up/down, maybe?
- ... (many more)...
To summarize: I don't know how it's going to work. So I decide to wait, test, and blame it if deserved. After!
Have you ever wanted to go in reverse when stopped at a traffic light and it turns green? It would already be in D and it would go forward when the light turns green.
I do not understand people who either disparage it or defend it based upon conjecture. Let’s see what it does (and doesn’t do).
and, regarding the transmission shifter... I’ve had cars with stalk, buttons, and spin wheel (Jaguar). All have been “by wire” for at least 20 years. Tesla says they are moving manual shifter to area near phone charger. So, those inclined to shift manually will probably have same effort as in any of the ~50% of models out there that have their shifters in the center console vs on a steering column lever.
again let’s see how it works. Personally I’d give Tesla a bit of slack because they’ve earned for me. They’ve made center screen work IMO, as well as ventless HVAC... two things that could be scary or confusing before you actually experience.
and, regarding the transmission shifter... I’ve had cars with stalk, buttons, and spin wheel (Jaguar). All have been “by wire” for at least 20 years. Tesla says they are moving manual shifter to area near phone charger. So, those inclined to shift manually will probably have same effort as in any of the ~50% of models out there that have their shifters in the center console vs on a steering column lever.
again let’s see how it works. Personally I’d give Tesla a bit of slack because they’ve earned for me. They’ve made center screen work IMO, as well as ventless HVAC... two things that could be scary or confusing before you actually experience.
