New FSD details

[Bumper]

I'm not holding my breath on getting HW3. There's a lot of replacement stuff that needs to be done. Wires, servos, cameras, etc. Still love my car the way it is though! Just wish I didn't overpay for FSD and AP.

I don’t consider those extra replacements insurmountable. Even the need to run some extra wires isn’t likely too hard. Car audio places do it all the time for alarms, subwoofers, etc. changing out the front facing cameras can’t take long or cost too much. And this is only for the pool of AP2 hardware folks that already paid for FSD which shouldn’t be a huge group. They could just treat it like a recall like the airbags.

 

[PhilDavid]

I'm not holding my breath on getting HW3. There's a lot of replacement stuff that needs to be done. Wires, servos, cameras, etc. Still love my car the way it is though! Just wish I didn't overpay for FSD and AP.

they WILL need HW 3 to implement FSD as their FSD code will be based on HW 3.0.

 

[PhilDavid]

I don’t consider those extra replacements insurmountable. Even the need to run some extra wires isn’t likely too hard. Car audio places do it all the time for alarms, subwoofers, etc. changing out the front facing cameras can’t take long or cost too much. And this is only for the pool of AP2 hardware folks that already paid for FSD which shouldn’t be a huge group. They could just treat it like a recall like the airbags.

Absolutely It should not be that big of a deal to swap out the cameras and run an extra cable or two for the new radar. Plus FSD customers are paying a bunch of money for the upgrade.

IMHO it is to Tesla's benefit to get as many people as possible on the HW 3.0 platform so they can program FSD features for HW 3.0 without having to special case HW 2 and 2.5, notwithstanding thefact that HW 2.0/2.5 we know is a dead end for getting FSD working anyway.

So they will have to do any upgrades and it should not be that difficult. People run wires to install cameras, radar detectors, dashcams and such all the time and it doesn't cost much.

 

[BlueRocket]

notwithstanding thefact that HW 2.0/2.5 we know is a dead end for getting FSD working anyway.

That's not true. When I bought my car it was promised that the existing hardware 2.0 was capable of FSD. That's why I purchased it 26 months ago. Maybe HW3.0 is a dead end? Ever consider that? Maybe it will do nothing more than drive on the highway and the "automatic city driving" will never materialize? Were you promised L3? I was.

I hope they do the right thing but I think a lot more people than you think will need the hardware upgrade.

 

[diplomat33]

Found this chart on Twitter from EVannex that shows exactly what everything is:

 

[zanary]

I'm not holding my breath on getting HW3. There's a lot of replacement stuff that needs to be done. Wires, servos, cameras, etc. Still love my car the way it is though! Just wish I didn't overpay for FSD and AP.

I don't think any of that is true. AP3 is a directly replacement to the AP2/2.5 computer. Even Elon indicated that when it becomes available, Mobile Service will come out and just swap it out. If you remove that plastic part on the side of the passenger where the door meets the body, you can see the AP2/2.5 computer right there. The harness is the same.

AP 2.0 and 2.5 has redundant chips, but beyond that isn't it the same cameras and radar and ultra sonic sensors?

 

[PhilDavid]

That's not true. When I bought my car it was promised that the existing hardware 2.0 was capable of FSD. That's why I purchased it 26 months ago. Maybe HW3.0 is a dead end? Ever consider that? Maybe it will do nothing more than drive on the highway and the "automatic city driving" will never materialize? Were you promised L3? I was.

I hope they do the right thing but I think a lot more people than you think will need the hardware upgrade.

They told you something that is not true. Simple as that,

Listen to Elon's latest Autopilot Podcast. he clearly states that future EAP/FSD software development will be based on HW 3.0, as that's what will allow them to develop EAP/FSD features the fastest. HW 2.0/2.5 is an interim solution and a dead end for future FSD development.

 

[iTech]

I don't think any of that is true. AP3 is a directly replacement to the AP2/2.5 computer. Even Elon indicated that when it becomes available, Mobile Service will come out and just swap it out. If you remove that plastic part on the side of the passenger where the door meets the body, you can see the AP2/2.5 computer right there. The harness is the same.

AP 2.0 and 2.5 has redundant chips, but beyond that isn't it the same cameras and radar and ultra sonic sensors?

No, AP2.5 cameras and radar is different (better).

 

[zanary]

No, AP2.5 cameras and radar is different (better).

Maybe I missed it but can you share the screen grab from the parts inventory site that shows that?

I can’t find anything that indicates that.

 

[iTech]

Maybe I missed it but can you share the screen grab from the parts inventory site that shows that?

I can’t find anything that indicates that.

HW2.5 capabilities

I don't have the camera stuff on hand but the debate of why dash cam isn't available for AP2 talks about the cameras being different.

Edit: AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations? for cameras

 

[dbldwn02]

I want to be

Maybe I missed it but can you share the screen grab from the parts inventory site that shows that?

I can’t find anything that indicates that.

First thing that pops up on Google.

AP 2.5 Hardware Teardown and Comparison : teslamotors

This is what actually changed between 2.0 and 2.5. It's a bit more than a "chip".

Here's my theory. Tesla won't release any full self driving features until they can upgrade the 2.0 cars. They will keep redefining FSD. If they release any FSD to 2.5 or 3.0 without a roadmap for 2.0 upgrades, they'll have a big lawsuit on their hands. Plus now they're saying early adopters with 2.0/2.5 will get early access. Doubtful.

 

[Troy]

Apparently, some Delivery Advisors are still telling the following after Tesla's second blog post that was supposed to clarify things:

• EAP gets free FSD if car was ordered in 2019
• No EAP gets free AP if car was ordered in 2019

See the examples here and here. But the blog doesn't mention any free stuff. I don't know if any of this free stuff is correct, but if it is, the pricing would look like this:

 

[OPRCE]

As far as I know, EAP will inherit Auto Lane Change without confirmation when it comes out. I don't think there will be one ALC with confirmation and one without.

If they do [as I agree they should] get ALC on HW2.x + EAP, the experience is guaranteed to be a qualitatively very different one than ALC on HW3 + FSD, in terms of improved perception accuracy, path fluidity and overall safety, given that the latter will have the cameras running at full resolution and frame rates, on greatly expanded neural nets, whereas the former will remain restricted and on the current nets, due to its processor capacity already being about maxed out [hence resulting in a more error-prone and jerky path].

OTOH those new buyers who await HW3 appearing in series production, then take AP only, should, for the same reasons, get a much more reliable Autosteer and TACC than is available on the current system [minus NoAP, ALC, etc.]

A 30-day FSD-trial will in all likelihood be offered when it is in a decent working order and, if purchased, [the realistic estimate is] around Jan 2023 the nags should be removed to give a true general-purpose L3 AV system.

Hence my recommendation would be to steer towards HW3 by any means necessary, both as a safer and more enjoyable vehicle and a better long-term investment/resale value!

When did Tesla start installing MCU 2?

On build-date 22 March 2018, according to my very competent and friendly sales advisor, who steered me to one built in late April.

They will keep redefining FSD.

I don't think they can afford to risk pushing their luck any further on that front.

It is more likely that the relatively small number [perhaps 10,000] of HW2.0 owners who had pre-purchased FSD will have their cars bought back/exchanged if a retrofit of wiring, servos, cameras, etc., up to HW2.5 standards is economically infeasible. Whether this happens before or after a class-action lawsuit is matter for "negotiations" between the affected owners and Tesla, but now would be the perfect time to start organising / agitating to ensure the right thing gets done a.s.a.p.

but beyond that isn't it the same cameras and radar and ultra sonic sensors?

Cameras and radar are definitely different in HW2.5 from 2.0, also redundant wiring and steering servo were added. Not sure when the ultrasonics were upgraded but suspect they were in 2.0 already.

 

[PanAnna]

I’m a little confused. I bought my S last July. I just started a free 30 day EAP trial on Feb 24 because my plan was to buy the EAP now that I recieved my tax refund.

Now all this has happened???

I’m seeing in my account this new Autopilot available for $3500 and Autopilot plus FSD for $9000.

Should I expect these numbers to change further? I did not want to shell out $9K. My commute is 150 miles plus per day so I like the Nav on AP feature. I still have 3 weeks of the trial left to make a decision. I thought I would be purchasing EAP for $5500 during this trial.

 

[OPRCE]

Should I expect these numbers to change further?

Definitely $9k for FSD is off the charts wrong, so yes, give it a few days to settle down.

 

[whitex]

Electek has the scoop on the new Smart Summon coming this month. The car will indeed be able to navigate a parking lot autonomously to either come to your GPS phone location or a pin that you place on a map as long as they are within 150ft of your car. Looks like a FSD feature to me!

First look at Tesla’s new Enhanced Summon: self-driving in parking lots

150ft? How are you supposed to supervise the car (as per fine print). Or is Tesla taking on liability of the car damaging anything on the way?

 

[croman]

150ft? How are you supposed to supervise the car (as per fine print). Or is Tesla taking on liability of the car damaging anything on the way?

You look and watch. I'm sure you'll still be liable. Nothing mandates, in the US, that the manufacturer is legally responsible.

 

[whitex]

You look and watch. I'm sure you'll still be liable. Nothing mandates, in the US, that the manufacturer is legally responsible.

In that case I sure hope they will be able to somehow force disable it and prove it to the insurance companies that you don't have summon., for those who don't wish to pay the higher premiums for summon accidents. Then again, given the parts waits nowadays, unless you have a stable full of cars, why would you risk your car having to be out of commission for months just because you didn't want to talk 150ft?

 

[OPRCE]

150ft? How are you supposed to supervise the car (as per fine print). Or is Tesla taking on liability of the car damaging anything on the way?

I reckon "Smart Summon" will be a L2 feature not exceeding 10kmh parking speed with the owner continuously pressing a dead-man switch on their phone, which on release halts the car.

This is how Tesla will ensure responsible use, as legally you agreed to pressing the button to make it go [as per current L2 version], having been advised to carefully supervise, therefore if it crashes or injures someone that is still entirely your own fault.

What Tesla can least afford right now is to become encumbered with unnecessary legal liabilities, hence their lawyers will surely button this one down tighter'n a duck's chuff.

It really shouldn't cause any increase in insurance premiums and in fact may well reduce them by crashing less than the current rather unreliable incarnation.

 

[whitex]

I reckon "Smart Summon" will be a L2 feature not exceeding 10kmh parking speed with the owner continuously pressing a dead-man switch on their phone, which on release halts the car.

This is how Tesla will ensure responsible use, as legally you agreed to pressing the button to make it go [as per current L2 version], having been advised to carefully supervise, therefore if it crashes or injures someone that is still entirely your own fault.

What Tesla can least afford right now is to become encumbered with unnecessary legal liabilities, hence their lawyers will surely button this one down tighter'n a duck's chuff.

From 150ft away you'll be able to monitor all sides of the car and its path? I get Tesla will have the fine print to make sure you're liable, hence my worry about insurance going up to cover. Oh, and even at 10mph your car can do body damage which will get your car stuck in bodyshop waiting for estimate+parts+repair for weeks if not months.