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HW2.5 capabilities

AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,402
EU
So I've been pondering the hardware description and could not really understand why would they get rid of a fan in hw2.5, makes no sense, right?

Well, I got to look at actual diagrams today from a very resourceful source. HW2.5 is liquid cooled so they don't need that fan. Additionally I do see the second parker chip added.

OK, so apparently Model S/X are not shipping with this HW 2.5, assuming the spokesperson was not right. Perhaps they really are shipping with HW 2.1, while Model 3 is shipping with HW 2.5.

Buyer's beware: WAIT.
 

AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,402
EU
The "spokeperson" words could be a lie or just them being misinformed. After all the dual parker might be considered a single GPU by some, just a different configuration of PX2, no?

Being misinformation would be nothing new of course, but it is also possible the "legacy" Model S/X are getting a different update in the meanwhile and Model 3 is simply sporting even better hardware, because it has the new big screen computer system and Model S/X still does not have it.

Maybe Model S/X will get that HW 2.5 with the rumored interior update that also replaces the big screen computer, not before that. Maybe in the meanwhile they go an "HW 2.1" update that is more evolutionary from the AP 2.0 perspective.

Just speculating.
 

bjornb

Member
Feb 12, 2015
181
490
Norway

Parker has a small integrated GPU and there is also the Pascal discrete GPU (GP106) on the MXM board:

px2_arch-jpg.226402


I did not really ask about the cooling details, also this is for the Model 3 where they apparently colocated the ape and the ice in the same housing and then have it liquid cooled somehow. Not sure how all of this would work in X/S until we see a sample (unclear if current code even reflects such a setup or not).

Interesting. If HW2.5 require liquid cooling hooked up to the cars coolant circuit that will complicate a retrofit on existing cars..
 

bjornb

Member
Feb 12, 2015
181
490
Norway
Yes, one can use that to spread or move the heat but it still needs to be dissipated somewhere (heat exchange with car coolant or heatsink/fan).
 

verygreen

Curious member
Jan 16, 2017
2,927
11,345
TN
This is not the news I was hoping for, I agree we definitely need an m3 tear down to verify. I vote we all chip in and ship,the first m3 we can get our hands on to @wk057
He's already on the list to get his sometime super early ;)

Anyway, I wish I taken a better look at the diaagram while I could, but I did not.

The parker chips were marked as "main parker" and "backup parker" so at least back then that was the plan even though the other parket does not do anything yet.
It could be repurposed to do more things of course as everything that could be driven with software. Just need to wait and see.
 
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mrkisskiss

Member
Jan 26, 2017
232
281
London
I wonder if the backup chips are there to make the system fail safe operational?

It's been said that Tesla will never get anything they can market as Level 5 with HW2, regardless of features or technical abilities, because the system is not fail safe operational (i.e have a second system to ensure that the car doesn't endanger lives or property in the event of a catastrophic primary systems failure). Without fail safe operational, regardless of its technical abilities, you'll always have to be "paying attention" and be ready to take over (legally speaking) in case of such a system failure. Because of this, Tesla could end up in a situation where their FSD system is actually capable of doing amazing autonomous driving - but not considered a "level 5" system. PR craziness ensues.

So, maybe the redesign is there to provide enough power to take over and stop the car if something goes badly wrong, but won't actually play a part during normal operation of autonomous driving?
 
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mitchellh3

Member
Nov 18, 2016
162
259
Los Angeles, CA
Interesting. If HW2.5 require liquid cooling hooked up to the cars coolant circuit that will complicate a retrofit on existing cars..

Another option for a retrofit is that they'd make a fan-cooled version that fits more easily into the form factor of S/X.

That's assuming they'd have the physical space... but there is no reason they need to be identical as long as the hardware quacks the same.
 
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lunitiks

Cool James & Black Teacher
Nov 19, 2016
2,698
5,939
Prawn Island, VC
Can you elaborate how you see this?
The options codes are all over Design Studio, and there are several ways to view them. Here are a couple of ways.
Using Google Chrome:
(A) Hover mouse pointer over the right arrow in the big image (the arrow which can change the angle of your car spec); right click on the small preview of Model S in three quarter view (same view as big image); then Open Image In New Tab. Your new tab will have an URL that contains the options for your design. (Copy to word for better readability.) NB: This only works with Model S; on Model X the URL will have limited info.
URL.JPG


(B) Click "Save Design" to prompt the pop up (tells you to enter e-mail adress); right click on the red SUBMIT button; then Inspect. Chrome will expand developer tools (website code), and in the "Elements" view you can scroll to find options strings like this:
Inspect.JPG
 

ab26

Member
Nov 15, 2015
353
187
Bay Area, CA
The options codes are all over Design Studio, and there are several ways to view them. Here are a couple of ways.
Using Google Chrome:
(A) Hover mouse pointer over the right arrow in the big image (the arrow which can change the angle of your car spec); right click on the small preview of Model S in three quarter view (same view as big image); then Open Image In New Tab. Your new tab will have an URL that contains the options for your design. (Copy to word for better readability.) NB: This only works with Model S; on Model X the URL will have limited info.
View attachment 243024

(B) Click "Save Design" to prompt the pop up (tells you to enter e-mail adress); right click on the red SUBMIT button; then Inspect. Chrome will expand developer tools (website code), and in the "Elements" view you can scroll to find options strings like this:
View attachment 243025

Hmm..very interesting..What does this even mean i.e. what exactly is APH3? Is it just a reference to the computer upgrade? Or is it an upgraded sensor suite?
 

boaterva

Supporting Member
Apr 2, 2016
7,565
3,737
Northern Virginia, USA
For some reason, when I ordered my X two weeks ago, I had all the option codes (75). Then sometime in the meantime, most of them disappeared from the usual 'copy them from your image' method. I did capture them originally, and I have APH2. So, that did very recently change. Hm....
 

boaterva

Supporting Member
Apr 2, 2016
7,565
3,737
Northern Virginia, USA
It's very coincidental that I can no longer select delivery options beyond September. That's never happened before. When playing around with the website configurator, I've been able to select delivery for several months out. Now, that option doesn't even appear. Wonder if there is something to this.
When I ordered, the dropdown had 'ASAP', September, October, November, and maybe more, if I recall... if that's changed, interesting....

I don't recall where it was, before or after putting down the deposit. It's definitely gone from before the deposit now.
 

lunitiks

Cool James & Black Teacher
Nov 19, 2016
2,698
5,939
Prawn Island, VC
Ladies and gentlenerds, the cat has escaped the bag: We have new wiring schematics for Model S! Woo-hoo!

Interestingly they're called "October 21, 2017"... Which is two months from now... So naturally there's some speculation that "October" could be a typographical error and that it should've read "August".
Since August 21, 2017 was yesterday.
And since the previous wiring diagram was released in "October" 2016.
And since Tesla has never released anything that early before.

Who knows. Fatty-fat fat fingers, maybe.

Anyway: Autopilot "HW 2.5" - yes: Tesla actually calls it that in the schematics - seems to include the following changes:

1) "Gen3" Power Steering ECU with redundant power supply from a new E-fuse box in the frunk. (The E-fuse box itself is a pretty big HW-change as well, but I won't go into that.)

2) Rear view camera wiring/connectors has changed in the Autopilot ECU. Video signal still goes directly from rv-camera to the ECU (same as ap2.0), but now there's a "splitter" on the ECU side that for some reason sends signal out to both the MCU and to the ECU itself! So now there's two BUC inputs; one "Splitter Rearview Cam IN" and one "APE Rearview Cam IN". Don't ask me why. Anyway cudos @verygreen for noticing this in the SW-code long ago.

3) New radar sensor from Continental ("Radar Front Conti") with "primary" and "secondary" CAN-signalling to AP2.5ECU. Exciting!

4) Different fuse location for the 30A Autopilot ECU Primary power (F133 > F214). The 10A Autopilot ECU Secondary power is same as before. Not so exciting...

Non AP-wise, I also noticed a new "Charge Port ECU" that was not in the 2016-diagrams at all. (WTH?)

Well that's about it. No interior/cabin camera and still no HUD for you.
 

mitchellh3

Member
Nov 18, 2016
162
259
Los Angeles, CA
Thanks @lunitiks!

Focusing on the factual questions, leaving out the opinions:

1.) "Power Steering ECU" - Is the redundancy in the power that controls the steering itself. i.e. is this introducing redundancy for a self-driving vehicle in case the power steering dies? Again, won't jump to conclusions, but curious.

2.) What is big about an E-fuse? I'm ignorant.

3.) Primary/secondary on CAN for radar is indicative of a redundant radar, yes?

And now the opinions:

All these changes seem to indicate that the hardware changes are focusing big time on redundancy. One (of many) critiques of Autopilot is that it can't reach L5 because it doesn't have redundant systems. Could this be them moving towards that? It doesn't seem like there is any real increase in power or any of that and this would Occam's razor go in line with their PR saying that the new GPU is for "redundancy."

I don't know what this means for old cars and I don't care to get into an argument about it, but obviously if you bought FSD and gov't regulation requires redundant systems, you'll prob be in trouble. :)

Thoughts?
 

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