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[ChooseFreedom]

The turn signal stalk is close enough to the steering wheel that it can be activated by a finger motion with one's hand on the steering wheel.

Only if your hand is already in that position. You're assuming the left hand is in the 9:00 position, and the wheel is not already turning.
Even in that scenario, it's a wash. They're basically the same type motion, moving one finger/thumb.
And "close enough to the steering wheel" is not the same as ON the steering wheel.

It all comes back to learned habits. Once the new habit is formed, technically it's actually quicker and safer to have the signal on the wheel, where your hands are already positioned, no matter what position the wheel is in.

I really couldn't care less about this topic. I just find it funny how many people seem to be willing to die on this particular hill.
It's done. Tesla has made the move. They're not going back, and they're sure as hell not going to add the parts, suppliers, assembly line space, or manpower, back into the cars just to have stalks as "optional".
So either accept it, or don't, and go buy something else. Because at the end of the day, the only real impact the public has, is with their wallets. If enough people stop buying Teslas, and buy other EV's, and Tesla gets surveys or determines somehow that the main reason for the loss in sales was the lack of stalks, maybe they change their entire production line to add them back.
But don't hold your breath.

 

[SalisburySam]

Change happens one funeral at a time.

Sad, but brilliantly stated, thank you.

 

[EatsShoots]

This is a quick aside about an issue ultimately not relevant to a Tesla debate, but what you say about auto transmission was true for most of the history of that form of transmission, but is no longer accurate. My understanding is that modern auto transmissions have minimized energy loss and perfected gear selection relative to driving needs in any given situation so that they are more efficient for ICE vehicles than any person now can achieve with a manual transmission. Of course, what is even better is EV technology where multiple forward gear selection is not even needed.

100%. Modern automatics are better in literally every way (albeit not simplicity if one breaks I suppose...). I used to be a manual fanatic. They are just dinosaurs now--fully deprecated. Their heyday is gone. They can't handle the power autos can and they aren't as efficient, either.

 

[dfwatt]

Only if your hand is already in that position. You're assuming the left hand is in the 9:00 position, and the wheel is not already turning.
Even in that scenario, it's a wash. They're basically the same type motion, moving one finger/thumb.
And "close enough to the steering wheel" is not the same as ON the steering wheel.

It all comes back to learned habits. Once the new habit is formed, technically it's actually quicker and safer to have the signal on the wheel, where your hands are already positioned, no matter what position the wheel is in.

I really couldn't care less about this topic. I just find it funny how many people seem to be willing to die on this particular hill.
It's done. Tesla has made the move. They're not going back, and they're sure as hell not going to add the parts, suppliers, assembly line space, or manpower, back into the cars just to have stalks as "optional".
So either accept it, or don't, and go buy something else. Because at the end of the day, the only real impact the public has, is with their wallets. If enough people stop buying Teslas, and buy other EV's, and Tesla gets surveys or determines somehow that the main reason for the loss in sales was the lack of stalks, maybe they change their entire production line to add them back.
But don't hold your breath.

Excellent points. The other consideration that I don't understand is why people make this a deal breaker when there are aftermarket kits so if they want they can put the damn turn signals back on the steering wheel. It's a kluge for sure but at least if you don't want to change your habit systems you don't have to. In any case it's an absolutely nutty reason not to buy such a superior car.

 

[enemji]

Note that stalkless yoke steering is not new. From A Look At A 1950s Messerschmitt KR200's Steering Yoke, Which Is Cooler Than Tesla's - The Autopian

That is a bicycle handlebar

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Sad, but brilliantly stated, thank you.

It's a modification of a quote from the physicist Max Planck - "Science changes funeral by funeral"

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Excellent points. The other consideration that I don't understand is why people make this a deal breaker when there are aftermarket kits so if they want they can put the damn turn signals back on the steering wheel. It's a kluge for sure but at least if you don't want to change your habit systems you don't have to. In any case it's an absolutely nutty reason not to buy such a superior car.

Most people are lazy.
They won't go to the trouble of buying the aftermarket kit and installing it themselves. So they b!tch about not being able to buy the car the way THEY want it. Or complain about learning something new. 'How dare Tesla try to change my habits!'
So stupid.
Honestly, I think Tesla caving in on the steering wheel/yoke situation was the worst thing they could've done. Of all the unorthodox things they've implemented, and owners accepted, the one thing Tesla chose to revert because of customer feedback, has opened the door for customers to think if they just scream loud enough about anything, Tesla will cave again.
It's absurd.
The steering wheel was a simple change. They already had wheels from other models, they were already on the hook for whatever inventory was ordered of yokes, so they made those optional. Well, wheel option first, then yoke as the option.
But IMO, if they'd just held their ground, maybe even made a deal with an aftermarket company to offer special steering wheel options for the Model S, they wouldn't have opened this Pandora's Box.

Tesla doesn't want to be a full-of-options kind of company. They are all about streamlining at every level. Offering a bunch of options is not their MO. And switching to stalkless was a Massive change. Nothing at all like the yoke/wheel. Way more complicated at a lot of levels. So the stalks aren't coming back. Full stop. Adapt or leave.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

That is a bicycle handlebar

I think I had one of those as kid!

 

[Destiny1701]

Most people are lazy.
They won't go to the trouble of buying the aftermarket kit and installing it themselves. So they b!tch about not being able to buy the car the way THEY want it. Or complain about learning something new. 'How dare Tesla try to change my habits!'
So stupid.

Point one ..agreed. In general lol.

Point two…it’s also about warranty. How many don’t want modify and risk warranty collapse or insurance issues?

Habits wise ..again, if it’s making something functionally easier or more efficient, then way less opinions. Polarizing change which is seen as a 50/50 gamble will always have skeptics and adopters alike.

Neither one is right or wrong

 

[Kevy Baby]

Note that stalkless yoke steering is not new. From A Look At A 1950s Messerschmitt KR200's Steering Yoke, Which Is Cooler Than Tesla's - The Autopian

Sorry everyone: @3sr+buyer just invalidated every argument on the yolk and stalk arguments

 

[dusty22]

Don't see a stalk in this 1940's Messerschmitt either...

 

[EatsShoots]

Most people are lazy.
They won't go to the trouble of buying the aftermarket kit and installing it themselves. So they b!tch about not being able to buy the car the way THEY want it. Or complain about learning something new. 'How dare Tesla try to change my habits!'
So stupid.
Honestly, I think Tesla caving in on the steering wheel/yoke situation was the worst thing they could've done. Of all the unorthodox things they've implemented, and owners accepted, the one thing Tesla chose to revert because of customer feedback, has opened the door for customers to think if they just scream loud enough about anything, Tesla will cave again.
It's absurd.
The steering wheel was a simple change. They already had wheels from other models, they were already on the hook for whatever inventory was ordered of yokes, so they made those optional. Well, wheel option first, then yoke as the option.
But IMO, if they'd just held their ground, maybe even made a deal with an aftermarket company to offer special steering wheel options for the Model S, they wouldn't have opened this Pandora's Box.

Tesla doesn't want to be a full-of-options kind of company. They are all about streamlining at every level. Offering a bunch of options is not their MO. And switching to stalkless was a Massive change. Nothing at all like the yoke/wheel. Way more complicated at a lot of levels. So the stalks aren't coming back. Full stop. Adapt or leave.

It's strange to me you seem to hold this view that tesla is infallible in its decisions, damn everyone--even its customers. It will do what it wants and screw them if they dare to complain and cause it to correct course.

Telsa didn't introduce the yoke because it's better. They introduced it because musk liked it, for whatever reason he had (valid or invalid; it's musk and he will not be told that he's wrong).

"Adapt or leave" isn't a compelling argument for a company whose stock is cratering and delivered less cars in Q1 of this year than 2023.

 

[Destiny1701]

It's strange to me you seem to hold this view that tesla is infallible in its decisions, damn everyone--even its customers. It will do what it wants and screw them if they dare to complain and cause it to correct course.

Telsa didn't introduce the yoke because it's better. They introduced it because musk liked it, for whatever reason he had (valid or invalid; it's musk and he will not be told that he's wrong).

"Adapt or leave" isn't a compelling argument for a company whose stock is cratering and delivered less cars in Q1 of this year than 2023.

Correct. No logic to it.

This is why the yoke exists if anyone truly wants to know. It was not some brilliant technological marvel nor some well thought out design philosophy or marketing data which showed the yoke was to make its mark amongst the world of new genius level products.

Musks childhood TV show:

 

[BigNick]

Correct. No logic to it.

This is why the yoke exists if anyone truly wants to know. It was not some brilliant technological marvel nor some well thought out design philosophy or marketing data which showed the yoke was to make its mark amongst the world of new genius level products.

Musks childhood TV show:


View attachment 1043223

A possible alternative explanation is here:

http://www.coinopdoc.com/images/games/arcade/spy%20hunter/main.JPG

 

[ChooseFreedom]

It's strange to me you seem to hold this view that tesla is infallible in its decisions, damn everyone--even its customers. It will do what it wants and screw them if they dare to complain and cause it to correct course.

Telsa didn't introduce the yoke because it's better. They introduced it because musk liked it, for whatever reason he had (valid or invalid; it's musk and he will not be told that he's wrong).

"Adapt or leave" isn't a compelling argument for a company whose stock is cratering and delivered less cars in Q1 of this year than 2023.

Not at all! They are absolutely fallible. And Elon is probably the source of most of the mistakes. He pushes his agenda, and no one can talk sense to him.
I was saying that once these decisions are made, most are too late to change. The yoke was an exception to that.
And I completely agree with you. Elon wanted to create KITT from Knight Rider, so we get the yoke.

The prudent thing to do, the Big 6 thing to do, would have been to do some market screening/test group surveys, prior to making any production/supplier commitments. Make some prototypes, and bring in small groups of different kinds, media, car enthusiasts, non-Tesla folks. Ask them what they think. But no, Elon's gonna Elon.
Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes not. But the reality remains, most of these decisions will not be influenced by us. So we're stuck with it, and we either accept or we move on. All of us get to make that decision for ourselves.
The only constant is change.

 

[sleepydoc]

Most people are lazy.
They won't go to the trouble of buying the aftermarket kit and installing it themselves. So they b!tch about not being able to buy the car the way THEY want it. Or complain about learning something new. 'How dare Tesla try to change my habits!'
So stupid.

Nothing to do with laziness - The after market kits I've seen rely on 3rd party canbus interfaces that are subject to breaking with software updates. I would never trust such a critical function to a 3rd party add on.

Honestly, I think Tesla caving in on the steering wheel/yoke situation was the worst thing they could've done. Of all the unorthodox things they've implemented, and owners accepted, the one thing Tesla chose to revert because of customer feedback, has opened the door for customers to think if they just scream loud enough about anything, Tesla will cave again.
It's absurd.

Like the stalks, there is no credible argument that makes the yoke superior to a steering wheel. Tesla 'caved' because it was the right thing to do. there's nothing absurd about admitting your mistake and moving on.

The steering wheel was a simple change. They already had wheels from other models, they were already on the hook for whatever inventory was ordered of yokes, so they made those optional. Well, wheel option first, then yoke as the option.
But IMO, if they'd just held their ground, maybe even made a deal with an aftermarket company to offer special steering wheel options for the Model S, they wouldn't have opened this Pandora's Box.

'just held their ground' i.e. dug their feet in and stuck by a bad decision?

Tesla doesn't want to be a full-of-options kind of company. They are all about streamlining at every level. Offering a bunch of options is not their MO. And switching to stalkless was a Massive change. Nothing at all like the yoke/wheel. Way more complicated at a lot of levels. So the stalks aren't coming back. Full stop. Adapt or leave.

If they dont' want to be a 'full of options kind of company' then they need to stick with the option that the overwhelming majority of people want. Otherwise people leave.

'Adapt or leave' = 'my way or the highway.' = 'I don't give a damn if it's inferior or if people hate it. This is how it is.' (stomping feet while saying)

 

[stopcrazypp]

Nothing to do with laziness - The after market kits I've seen rely on 3rd party canbus interfaces that are subject to breaking with software updates. I would never trust such a critical function to a 3rd party add on.

Like the stalks, there is no credible argument that makes the yoke superior to a steering wheel. Tesla 'caved' because it was the right thing to do. there's nothing absurd about admitting your mistake and moving on.

The advantage of the yoke is it provides better view of the instrument cluster and looks cool (styling is a significant factor in car buying so it's not worth zero). However, it only makes sense in a car that has steer-by-wire so you only steer 180 degrees. Tesla introduced it too early. Obviously for cars even without an instrument cluster (like Model 3/Y and Cybertruck) the major advantage is lost.

The steering wheel buttons are similar (if you don't have to steer the wheel more than 180 degrees, they actually make sense).

 

[3sr+buyer]

The advantage of the yoke is it provides better view of the instrument cluster and looks cool (styling is a significant factor in car buying so it's not worth zero). However, it only makes sense in a car that has steer-by-wire so you only steer 180 degrees. Tesla introduced it too early.

Seems similar in this respect to deletion of radar before getting the vision-based TACC working well, or deletion of ultrasonic sensors (without adding a nose camera) before getting the vision-based parking aids working passably (or at all).

 

[smogne41]

Not at all! They are absolutely fallible. And Elon is probably the source of most of the mistakes. He pushes his agenda, and no one can talk sense to him.
I was saying that once these decisions are made, most are too late to change. The yoke was an exception to that.
And I completely agree with you. Elon wanted to create KITT from Knight Rider, so we get the yoke.

The prudent thing to do, the Big 6 thing to do, would have been to do some market screening/test group surveys, prior to making any production/supplier commitments. Make some prototypes, and bring in small groups of different kinds, media, car enthusiasts, non-Tesla folks. Ask them what they think. But no, Elon's gonna Elon.
Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes not. But the reality remains, most of these decisions will not be influenced by us. So we're stuck with it, and we either accept or we move on. All of us get to make that decision for ourselves.
The only constant is change.

So we agree he is not upholding his legal fiduciary responsibility as the CEO of a publicly traded company and needs to be charged/removed? Glad to hear it!

 

[whitex]

It's done. Tesla has made the move. They're not going back, and they're sure as hell not going to add the parts, suppliers, assembly line space, or manpower, back into the cars just to have stalks as "optional".

If enough people stop buying Teslas, and buy other EV's, and Tesla gets surveys or determines somehow that the main reason for the loss in sales was the lack of stalks, maybe they change their entire production line to add them back.

Contradicting statements (from the very same post)? So, it's done and they are not going back, or they might go back if enough people sufficiently dislike it?

I just find it funny how many people seem to be willing to die on this particular hill.

Perhaps folks on this forum are truing to convince others to stop buying Teslas (which as you said is the most promising lever to force Teslas hand) until the stalked steering wheel is re-instroduced, so that they can upgrade their Teslas? Full disclosure, my patience is not long enough for this move, after waiting a couple of years for a Plaid with stalked steering wheel, I switched from an all Tesla garage to all VWAG instead, still EVs, both have stalked steering wheels..