NEW Model 3 Highland review!

[sleepydoc]

The advantage of the yoke is it provides better view of the instrument cluster and looks cool (styling is a significant factor in car buying so it's not worth zero). However, it only makes sense in a car that has steer-by-wire so you only steer 180 degrees. Tesla introduced it too early. Obviously for cars even without an instrument cluster (like Model 3/Y and Cybertruck) the major advantage is lost.

The steering wheel buttons are similar (if you don't have to steer the wheel more than 180 degrees, they actually make sense).

“Better view of the instrument cluster” is only an advantage if the initial design is faulty. I’ve posted pictures before but every other car I’ve driven has the dash designed so the wheel doesn’t obstruct the view. As far as ‘looking cool’ goes, compromising safety for appearance is about as stupid as one can get.
The ironic thing is, the only car that has steer by wire (the cyber truck) actually doesn’t have a yoke! You’re correct that limiting the deviation to +/- 90º would eliminate many of the issues but there’s a critical issue here - they didn’t do that, so the issues are all present!

Tesla has already committed major resources into removing the stalks. That cannot be changed quickly.

But removing the stalks is a FAR bigger change at every level!

Exactly - the design for stalks is still there. Restoring them is actually fairly easy.

Maybe it’d time you consider again!

Model X/S OEM Style Gear Shift Stalk Switch Turn Signal Lever Kit for Tesla

Model X/S Gear Shift Stalk Switch Turn Signal Lever Kit for Tesla

teslaunch.net

I just looked at the link - they have the stalks, trim pieces and a connecting cable. There does not appear to be a CAN bus interface which was the concern I had with other’s I had seen.

Thinking about it, the stalks are essentially an amalgamation of multiple switches, the same as the buttons on the wheel are so it may well be that all you need to do is change the connection, particularly with the turn signals. That would also go against @ChooseFreedom ’s claim that restoring them would be a major undertaking. It appears it would actually be a fairly trivial one.

I say Tesla should do like they did with the joke - give people a choice and see what they really want. (I think we know what that would be)

 

[sleepydoc]

I had a very clear example of why buttons are so inferior the other day. I was turning and needed to press one of the wheel buttons and I had to stop and think about which one it was. (Oh, and the argument that one’s thumbs are always over the turn signal buttons is complete B.S., too. As soon as you start to turn the wheel they’re not and you’re left hunting.)

 

[Yelobird]

I had a very clear example of why buttons are so inferior the other day. I was turning and needed to press one of the wheel buttons and I had to stop and think about which one it was. (Oh, and the argument that one’s thumbs are always over the turn signal buttons is complete B.S., too. As soon as you start to turn the wheel they’re not and you’re left hunting.)

Curious how often do you turn Then decide to signal?

 

[sleepydoc]

Curious how often do you turn Then decide to signal?

Virtually never, but not infrequently I need to signal while turning the wheel.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Curious how often do you turn Then decide to signal?

Signaling to exit a roundabout seems to be the usual example given here, although if the roundabout is large enough radius, your left hand may be still where it normally is when driving straight.

Non-roundabout examples would be where the road is curvy, and you want to signal for an upcoming turn while driving on a curved part of the road.

 

[Yelobird]

Signaling to exit a roundabout seems to be the usual example given here, although if the roundabout is large enough radius, your left hand may be still where it normally is when driving straight.

Non-roundabout examples would be where the road is curvy, and you want to signal for an upcoming turn while driving on a curved part of the road.

Fair answer I guess granted I have never driven a roundabout that required more then a quarter turn of the wheel and at least in the US it would always we a right turn signal to exit so not overly tricky.

 

[sleepydoc]

I also come back to my original question - what is the functional advantage of removing the stalks? there is zero advantage to usability, arguably a significant disadvantage. There’s no advantage for reliability, either.

 

[SalisburySam]

I also come back to my original question - what is the functional advantage of removing the stalks?

It’s kewl.

 

[JuanF1]

I also come back to my original question - what is the functional advantage of removing the stalks? there is zero advantage to usability, arguably a significant disadvantage. There’s no advantage for reliability, either.

The other way, the same question can be asked about having stalks. After 4 months of driving stalkless, I see no advantage/disadvantage compared to my prior 15 years of driving with stalks.

 

[sleepydoc]

The other way, the same question can be asked about having stalks. After 4 months of driving stalkless, I see no advantage/disadvantage compared to my prior 15 years of driving with stalks.

So best case it’s no better and for some people no worse, for others it makes the car more difficult to drive. For others it’s a nonstarter and they won’t buy a Tesla without stalks. I have heard no one say they would specifically buy a Tesla because it didn’t have stalks or that they would only buy a car without stalks. Plus Tesla is out all of the development costs to remove them. Seems like a pretty poor business decision.

 

[dfwatt]

So best case it’s no better and for some people no worse, for others it makes the car more difficult to drive. For others it’s a nonstarter and they won’t buy a Tesla without stalks. I have heard no one say they would specifically buy a Tesla because it didn’t have stalks or that they would only buy a car without stalks. Plus Tesla is out all of the development costs to remove them. Seems like a pretty poor business decision.

Agreed on all those points. The big picture behind all this is what I call Elon's 'futurism'. This is not simply an investment in disruptive Technologies which of course are always futuristic in some sense it's the belief that the future is so much better than the present that we should rush there at warp speed - no pun intended. It's why he's so far ahead of the curve in relationship to vehicle autonomy when most people can barely trust radar assisted Cruise control. The question is whether he's so far ahead of the curve that he actually hurts the adoption of the disruptive technology, or whether he's just far enough ahead that Tesla captures and continues to capture a lion's share.

But an uncritical futurism has serious downsides, including the minimization of what futuristic Technologies sacrifice and whether they're even in a sense achievable, cost-effective or sustainable. The whole point/logic of disruptive technology is that it does the job better than the old technology, is more cost-effective, and has other advantages. Stalks versus turn signals on wheels don't really meet that standard, except maybe the cost saving bit.

If you believe relentlessly in futurism of course all things are achievable including time travel and faster than light travel. I believe it's part of why he's systematically blinded to the real difficulties around space colonization particularly in relationship to Mars, where the biggest problems are not technical but rather biological - namely that no organism has lived outside of an ecology in the history of life. We would be the first to do so at least temporarily, but then the challenge becomes recreating an ecological Matrix on a dead Planet without a magnetosphere. Not sure that that part is doable but if it is doable it would involve creating ecological relationships of the kind that exists here between plants animals and microbiomes. But I'm not sure that Elon thinks in those terms.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Thinking about it, the stalks are essentially an amalgamation of multiple switches, the same as the buttons on the wheel are so it may well be that all you need to do is change the connection, particularly with the turn signals. That would also go against @ChooseFreedom ’s claim that restoring them would be a major undertaking. It appears it would actually be a fairly trivial one.

I say Tesla should do like they did with the joke - give people a choice and see what they really want. (I think we know what that would be)

Are you suggesting they would just leave the turn signal buttons on the center wheel/airbag assembly? What about the upper gear shift buttons above the rearview mirror?

Your "optional" stalks would cause 1 of 2 things:
1) They have redundant center wheel buttons with the stalks, reducing the other options capable of being put on the wheel. As well as the redundant gear shift buttons over the rearview mirror. Which also means the gearshift on the screen is redundant.
or
2) They stock 4 different center wheel/air bag assemblies to match whether stalks/no stalks/yoke/wheel is chosen. Which also includes stocking 2 versions of the steering column cover piece.

Neither option seems like something a streamline-driven company would do.

Again, the yoke/wheel option has the same button setup, and no software changes. Not to mention, they already had committed to the inventory/supply chain. It's truly as "simple" an option can be to offer. Even the assembly line would just have a small container of optional yokes near the steering wheels, so either could be grabbed. (Although if the orders are 50/50, there would need to be some space decisions made to accommodate larger containers of both options. Or plan builds to have runs of each. Both of those being extra costs in the form of labor planning time, but I'm getting into the weeds)

Stocking 4 different steering wheels and 2 covers, is not as easy, not as efficient, not as cost effective, not as simple at the assembly line, it's just not the same.
Assembly line process times are measured in seconds. What you're proposing could cost them minutes overall. That very much affects the bottom line, which then ultimately affects the price of the car.

You seem to be over-simplifying what you want, and not thinking objectively about the big picture.
If the stalks mean that much to you, sell your Tesla, and buy something else.
That's the beauty of capitalism. You use your money to vote for what you want. If enough people do that, companies either change, or go out of business. At least that's how it should be, if we actually lived in a capitalist democracy. But that's not for this forum.

 

[dfwatt]

Are you suggesting they would just leave the turn signal buttons on the center wheel/airbag assembly? What about the upper gear shift buttons above the rearview mirror?

Your "optional" stalks would cause 1 of 2 things:
1) They have redundant center wheel buttons with the stalks, reducing the other options capable of being put on the wheel. As well as the redundant gear shift buttons over the rearview mirror. Which also means the gearshift on the screen is redundant.
or
2) They stock 4 different center wheel/air bag assemblies to match whether stalks/no stalks/yoke/wheel is chosen. Which also includes stocking 2 versions of the steering column cover piece.

Neither option seems like something a streamline-driven company would do.

Again, the yoke/wheel option has the same button setup, and no software changes. Not to mention, they already had committed to the inventory/supply chain. It's truly as "simple" an option can be to offer. Even the assembly line would just have a small container of optional yokes near the steering wheels, so either could be grabbed. (Although if the orders are 50/50, there would need to be some space decisions made to accommodate larger containers of both options. Or plan builds to have runs of each. Both of those being extra costs in the form of labor planning time, but I'm getting into the weeds)

Stocking 4 different steering wheels and 2 covers, is not as easy, not as efficient, not as cost effective, not as simple at the assembly line, it's just not the same.
Assembly line process times are measured in seconds. What you're proposing could cost them minutes overall. That very much affects the bottom line, which then ultimately affects the price of the car.

You seem to be over-simplifying what you want, and not thinking objectively about the big picture.
If the stalks mean that much to you, sell your Tesla, and buy something else.
That's the beauty of capitalism. You use your money to vote for what you want. If enough people do that, companies either change, or go out of business. At least that's how it should be, if we actually lived in a capitalist democracy. But that's not for this forum.

I really don't understand the intensity of the debate about this. If you love Teslas but hate the fact that they don't have Drive stalks or turn signals, get the aftermarket kit. It's cheap, works well, and then the issue is over. If you can adapt, again there's no issue. But it seems to me this is a whole lot of fussing over small potatoes. One could easily argue that the brittle and overweight wheels on performance model 3s (just recently rectified with the addition of a forged wheel compliment on the new M3P) is a bigger deficit or a bigger problem than whether or not you have turn signals in the traditional location. Also I think you could easily argue that the dysfunctional FSD that people paid for for years that now finally mostly works is also a much bigger issue.

 

[sleepydoc]

Agreed on all those points. The big picture behind all this is what I call Elon's 'futurism'. This is not simply an investment in disruptive Technologies which of course are always futuristic in some sense it's the belief that the future is so much better than the present that we should rush there at warp speed - no pun intended. It's why he's so far ahead of the curve in relationship to vehicle autonomy when most people can barely trust radar assisted Cruise control. The question is whether he's so far ahead of the curve that he actually hurts the adoption of the disruptive technology, or whether he's just far enough ahead that Tesla captures and continues to capture a lion's share.

But an uncritical futurism has serious downsides, including the minimization of what futuristic Technologies sacrifice and whether they're even in a sense achievable, cost-effective or sustainable. The whole point/logic of disruptive technology is that it does the job better than the old technology, is more cost-effective, and has other advantages. Stalks versus turn signals on wheels don't really meet that standard, except maybe the cost saving bit.

If you believe relentlessly in futurism of course all things are achievable including time travel and faster than light travel. I believe it's part of why he's systematically blinded to the real difficulties around space colonization particularly in relationship to Mars, where the biggest problems are not technical but rather biological - namely that no organism has lived outside of an ecology in the history of life. We would be the first to do so at least temporarily, but then the challenge becomes recreating an ecological Matrix on a dead Planet without a magnetosphere. Not sure that that part is doable but if it is doable it would involve creating ecological relationships of the kind that exists here between plants animals and microbiomes. But I'm not sure that Elon thinks in those terms.

Even the cost saving bit is up for debate. They remove the stalks but add a bunch of other buttons on the wheel, add physical buttons for gear shifting and have to pay for software development/testing. You are spot, on, though - change for change's sake is pointless. There should always be a net improvement.

 

[Dear_OP]

I think anyone who thinks the Tesla applied cost cutting measure to the M3H should watch Munro Live for this car.

 

[dfwatt]

I think anyone who thinks the Tesla applied cost cutting measure to the M3H should watch Munro Live for this car.

Yes and even the first tear down of the old model 3 in 2017-18 made it clear that Tesla spent all the money on the really important stuff - motors, battery, electronics and circuit boards. Munro was not impressed with the panel gaps and other assembly quality issues but very impressed with the circuit boards and other critical hardware. Now they fixed their assembly quality issues and they're simply the Premier EV in terms of Technology, and overall quality. Our cars both m3ps are now 6 years old have 8% battery degradation despite suboptimal charging practices, and are just bulletproof reliable.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

I think anyone who thinks the Tesla applied cost cutting measure to the M3H should watch Munro Live for this car.

Right, it's not just about the bottom line, it's also about where they invested.
And you could say there's a slight difference between cost cutting, and cost savings. Cutting particular parts and replacing them with other parts can be a plus savings. But replacing with a better part/process might look like a wash or even cost increase. But in the long run will save in ways we may not see yet, but that their plan does.

I was thoroughly impressed when I heard Munro say that nearly half of the parts in the Highland were new from the previous M3, and Tesla raised the price very little.

I don't think any other car manufacturer could do that.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Even the cost saving bit is up for debate. They remove the stalks but add a bunch of other buttons on the wheel, add physical buttons for gear shifting and have to pay for software development/testing. You are spot, on, though - change for change's sake is pointless. There should always be a net improvement.

We can't see their long-term plans, but I'd assume if we could we'd see how no stalks is an improvement. But I'm with you in that I don't think their timing is very good. I think if they'd worked on implementing steer-by-wire at the same time as removing the stalks, they would have gotten less negative feedback. I say that solely based on the few videos I've seen of people driving the CT. When you can make a full U-turn without removing your hands from the wheel, or even adjusting your grip position, it makes the signals on the wheel a non-issue.
And then the gear shifting I don't think is that big a deal in the first place, just a learned habit that shouldn't take that long to get used to. Going forward, updates are going to improve the predictive gear selection as well, so less and less need to even manually choose.

 

[Eto Demerzel]

That last point is not something on which there would be any degree of consensus from the forum. Aftermarket stuff like the suspension stuff from Mountain Pass is absolutely top drawer.

Let me guess.. you spent $2k on coilovers

 

[Kevy Baby]

Let me guess.. you spent $2k on coilovers

So what if they did? Why would you care? He gave an EXAMPLE of how the claim was not true in all cases.

Personally, I have no interest in performance upgrades, but I absolutely don't begrudge those who do. I spent my upgrade dollars on something that I know doesn't interest (by my guess) 98% of the Tesla drivers.