New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[NigelM]

The opinion in this thread is very warped....<snip>...everyone here should realize this discussion is quite warped and not representative of the market. imho

Thanks for telling everyone how they should think.

 

[ZachShahan]

Zach, just because you don't have the same needs doesn't mean others' needs are atypical. The large flat space was obviously recognized originally (and in subsequent comms) by Tesla as important - or they would not have emphasized it.

I want a utility vehicle able to fill the gap created by a 2-seater Roadster. Right now, that's a Jeep. I want it to be an X with the capability of what has been communicated to me.

I'm definitely no saying my needs are typical. I'm just saying that there seems to be a ton of space in the X and I don't think lack of space is going to be an issue for the majority of buyers. As always, if it is for you, it may feel that way, and we don't have the market research on how many people need/want more space than the X offers (we don't even know what the X offers), but my guess is that it's a very small % of potential buyers who are going to have a problem with the space in this vehicle. And adding in the frunk and storage space in the rear under the floor, I think it'll be hard to find many vehicles in this class that offer more space. But, yes, some long pieces of wood and some furniture won't fit....

 

[NigelM]

2) some people have plopped down $5,000 or $40,000 or at least intended to spend ~$100,000 with very specific (and atypical) space needs, and are logically upset with the assumption that they won't be met.

IMO some people are logically upset because the parameters changed from what they were previously told.

Edit: Take a look at what people were told the very same evening they were invited to put down their deposits...(Start at 20:10)

 

[ohmman]

Speaking for myself, I'm hoping to replace a Honda Odyssey. Replace being the key word here.

I'm on board with Bonnie and the others in this thread in that I'll be disappointed if I have to rent a truck to haul something that would have easily fit in my MX had it been shipped with folding seats. Think about that reminder, each time you try to fit something in and it just.. doesn't.. fit.

 

[hpham007]

The falcon wing doors are not (just) a gimmick to boost sales. The wanted a design that provides a lot of space for passengers to get in and out of the third row without having to ask passengers in the second row to step out and fold the seat forward. Have you ever sat in the back of a 3 door car?

Are you saying people in the second row do not have to exit in order to get people in the third row? This seems highly unlikely unless the second row passengers prefer their knees be crushed when the seat is move forward.

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The falcon wing doors are not (just) a gimmick to boost sales. The wanted a design that provides a lot of space for passengers to get in and out of the third row without having to ask passengers in the second row to step out and fold the seat forward. Have you ever sat in the back of a 3 door car?

Are you saying people in the second row do not have to exit in order to get people in the third row? This seems highly unlikely unless the second row passengers prefer their knees be crushed when the seat is move forward.

 

[ZachShahan]

Thanks for telling everyone how they should think.

You don't think it's important for people to maintain broader perspective when talking about the broad implications of this topic? Or you don't think this thread is warping the importance of this issue? I'm honestly not sure what is wrong with reminding people to step back for a second when talking about the macro implications here.

I understand you and some others are concerned about the storage space of a vehicle you put $40,000 into years ago. Who wouldn't be in such a case? In fact, who wouldn't start seeing the world in a darker light as a result of that? If I were in that case, I'm sure I'd be plenty upset, but I'd also appreciate someone reminding me to not lose sight of broader perspectives when discussing the matter.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I'm definitely no saying my needs are typical. I'm just saying that there seems to be a ton of space in the X and I don't think lack of space is going to be an issue for the majority of buyers. As always, if it is for you, it may feel that way, and we don't have the market research on how many people need/want more space than the X offers (we don't even know what the X offers), but my guess is that it's a very small % of potential buyers who are going to have a problem with the space in this vehicle. And adding in the frunk and storage space in the rear under the floor, I think it'll be hard to find many vehicles in this class that offer more space. But, yes, some long pieces of wood and some furniture won't fit....

Why speculate? At least 32% of the people who have voted in this poll will find the solution Tesla has chosen unacceptable. Something like an additional 56% won't particularly like the chosen solution, but will probably for the most part accept it: How important is it for you that the 2nd row seats of the Model X are stowable?

 

[ZachShahan]

IMO some people are logically upset because the parameters changed from what they were previously told.

Edit: Take a look at what people were told the very same evening they were invited to put down their deposits...(Start at 20:10)

Definitely. If that ends up being the case, I'm genuinely very upset as well. It's a very bad precedent and it makes me lose some faith in the company and Musk. But I'm waiting till we have more details to personally be pulled in any direction regarding that. It would be a very big systematic mistake that reinforced communication mistakes that we've seen on a smaller scale already.

 

[NigelM]

You don't think it's important for people to maintain broader perspective when talking about the broad implications of this topic? Or you don't think this thread is warping the importance of this issue? I'm honestly not sure what is wrong with reminding people to step back for a second when talking about the macro implications here.

I understand you and some others are concerned about the storage space of a vehicle you put $40,000 into years ago. Who wouldn't be in such a case? In fact, who wouldn't start seeing the world in a darker light as a result of that? If I were in that case, I'm sure I'd be plenty upset, but I'd also appreciate someone reminding me to not lose sight of broader perspectives when discussing the matter.

Zach, I don't need to be told to take a broader perspective but what you were doing was passive aggressively telling us the discussion is warped.

 

[ZachShahan]

Why speculate? At least 32% of the people who have voted in this poll will find the solution Tesla has chosen unacceptable. Something like an additional 56% won't particularly like the chosen solution, but will probably for the most part accept it: How important is it for you that the 2nd row seats of the Model X are stowable?

As someone else pointed out, polling here is really not a scientifically sound action. Fun and interesting, sure, but it is not going to be representative of the norm.

 

[ohmman]

As someone else pointed out, polling here is really not a scientifically sound action. Fun and interesting, sure, but it is not going to be representative of the norm.

I've argued this plenty of times before. TMC polls are self-selecting and broadly meaningless unless your question is "How do the members of TMC who want to vote in this poll feel about X?"

 

[NigelM]

If that ends up being the case,....But I'm waiting till we have more details to personally be pulled in any direction regarding that.

To be clear; yes, we're still waiting on many answers but at present it has been confirmed that the second row seats do not fold flat.

What I and many others are waiting on are some details on what space is really there.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Are you saying people in the second row do not have to exit in order to get people in the third row? This seems highly unlikely unless the second row passengers prefer their knees be crushed when the seat is move forward.

I remember Elon getting out of the third row during the unveiling while the 2nd row as still in a position where there is knee space (no need to slide seat forward). This is only possible with the Falcon doors given you can stand up while still in the car.

At the “Model X Reveal” CEO Elon Musk hops in and out of the Model X third row seat, through the newly designed Falcon wing door. “Now ordinarily I’d move the seat, but I didn’t want to wait for that,” he said in half a breath.

http://gotentrepreneurs.com/project/tesla-motors/

 

[yobigd20]

Can you even transport a few 8ft long 2x4's? In the S, you can recline the front row passenger seat back so that you can haul longer items. With the fixed back 2nd row on the X and the slope of the hatch, I don't think you'll be able to even carry a 8ft piece of lumber (unless you keep the back hatch open).

You can in the S for sure. I had 7 2x10s 8' long in the P85D a month or so ago.

not only can you transport 8' boards in an MS, 10' boards fit fine too. I just bought a dozen 10' boards last weekend from home depot to construct a bunch of shelves and they fit from the rear all the way up to the front with room to spare too in my P85.

 

[ZachShahan]

Zach, I don't need to be told to take a broader perspective but what you were doing was passive aggressively telling us the discussion is warped.

I wouldn't call my feeling, tone, or approach passive aggressive, but can see how it could be read that way. There are clearly limitations in communication when only typing and reading. I can't think of a better word to describe perspective on this thread and many forum threads than "warped." It's a select group of people who are here and are communicating here. I think it's clear that it is far removed from the norm. As a result, the perspective is warped (or "atypical," which I've already used as well).

I'd be pissed if I was counting on that space for years. I'd probably be here complaining about it.

As someone who isn't in those shoes, I don't think the space limitations (if they are indeed present) are a big deal in the grand scheme of demand for this product or satisfaction of owners. I do think even the fact that the 2nd-row seats don't fold flat is a huge communication mistake, and follows mistakes like those we've seen with autopilot, horsepower, and some other matters. When the plan was changed, it probably should have been communicated in some way to Signature reservation holders. It's again a case of Elon having huge aspirations that get hit and chopped down by the realities of engineering, the NHTSA, suppliers, or other matters. Similar to Hofstadter's law, which clearly strikes Elon from time to time.

To try to summarize my key point, though: This is a huge issue and perhaps a huge problem for some of you. But I don't think this is a significant problem for most Model X buyers or Model X demand/satisfaction. However, I do think it is again indication of communication problems that need to be fixed at Tesla.

 

[Yggdrasill]

As someone else pointed out, polling here is really not a scientifically sound action. Fun and interesting, sure, but it is not going to be representative of the norm.

It is an indicator. And it's way more data than you have. Basically, your opinion is contrary to the available evidence, however thin.

 

[ZachShahan]

To be clear; yes, we're still waiting on many answers but at present it has been confirmed that the second row seats do not fold flat.

What I and many others are waiting on are some details on what space is really there.

Definitely. And as an addendum to what I just wrote, I also agree it's a mistake of Tesla to not provide specific numbers to reservation holders -- those configuring and those not configuring.

- - - Updated - - -

It is an indicator. And it's way more data than you have. Basically, your opinion is contrary to the available evidence, however thin.

You're polling people who have had enough interest to read hundreds of posts, many repetitive, about a very specific subject. Most people who don't care are not going to see or respond to the poll. Bad data is worse than no data. Sorry, but if you ask just about any academically trained researcher in this field, you'd be told to not base any opinions/decisions on the data from that poll.

 

[eloder]

I can understand why people would be upset given the differences from the prototype, but at the same time, prototypes change all the time when going to full production. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. In case of the MX, it's significantly faster than the prototype (Insane and Ludicrous developments), is much more able to do roadtrips (Supercharger network is near-national now), has an adaptive spoiler, and has much fancier second row seats than initially shown.

On the downside, there's storage (for some people--but not all people, I imagine most people will be happy with the extra-cavernous storage space while being able to seat passengers), mirrors still being present, and possibly some other things we don't know about.

How is this different from any other prototype to full production situation? If unhappy, people should just cancel. It's not like you'll be waiving your deposit, nor is it like Tesla prevents you from being able to defer your order until details are known. I don't think Tesla needs to hold onto every last reservation given what they've shown, and the fact that it's an SUV that can out-perform a McLaren at the drag strip. People will pay through the nose for something that has more overall space than a Minivan with supercar-like performance.

You don't get a Tesla grin by folding down the second row seats of your Jeep.

 

[Yggdrasill]

You're polling people who have had enough interest to read hundreds of posts, many repetitive, about a very specific subject. Most people who don't care are not going to see or respond to the poll. Bad data is worse than no data. Sorry, but if you ask just about any academically trained researcher in this field, you'd be told to not base any opinions/decisions on the data from that poll.

In all probability, most of those who have voted have read few, if any, posts in the thread. I'm not saying the poll result is the absolute truth, but it's wishful thinking to assume it isn't in the ballpark of what you would find given a larger, more randomized data collection.

 

[Vitold]

Exactly. And yet, there is nothing an SUV does that a minivan doesn't do as well or better, aside from having a little higher towing capacity and a bit more ground clearance. But most SUVs will never tow anything their entire lives, and the number that will use the extra clearance is similarly close to zero - the vast majority will never see anything more challenging than a gravel road that any normal car can drive, and most not even that.


Tons of people prefer SUVs not because of their utility but because they don't like the looks of a minivan, with its flatter sides and sliding doors.

There are few minivans that are 4x4