stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of the premise on that poll is that the length of the storage space with the 2nd row unfolded is significantly shorter than a Model S with the 2nd row folded. We do not yet know if that is the case.
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
From the Tesla June 16, 2014 comm sent to Model X reservation holders: "You’ll also be able to fold down the second and third rows to create a flat platform for storage. "
From the Tesla Nov 2014 comm sent to Model X reservation holders: "In fact, every element of Model X – from the interior to the falcon wing doors – either lives up to or surpasses the prototype we initially unveiled." And this message has been emphasized by Elon publicly in recent months.
These were not 'prototype' statements.
No, but I do get a Tesla grin when using my mostly-daily driver, a Roadster. And have for the last 4+ years. How about you?
That's exactly why people are upset. In their opinion, the Model X doesn't fulfill the minimum requirements of an SUV, so they are forced to buy something other than a Model X. Which means - no Tesla grin.
Tesla hasn't done anything *wrong* of course, people can just cancel their orders. The agreement with Tesla clearly states the reservation doesn't mean Tesla has to sell you a car. But Tesla has *made a mistake*. If 30-40% of reservation holders cancel because of the cargo space, that's not good for anyone.
I couldn't disagree more, and neither could statistical and polling science. The science on this is clear - our local community polls are inconclusive at best and have no correlation with a randomized poll except that occurring by coincidence.
This may be interesting reading for you: Sampling | Pew Research Center
Looking up selection bias on Google provides a plethora of detail as well. If you're still unconvinced, PM me and I'm happy to direct you to some great sources for free statistical courses, assuming that's something that interests you.
I know all about selection bias. And I agree the poll is inconclusive. But it is an indicator.
(How about finding some evidence of your position instead of attacking the evidence to the contrary? Best case - you don't have a leg to stand on and neither do I.)
What we have here is "expectation disappointment". However, in the grand scheme of things, once we finally have all the information, most people (not all) will be able to look at the Model-X and find a way around these limitations. Of course there will be some who won't and will have to move on.
For example, if you take the 2nd row, middle seat and move it all the way to the rear then tilt backwards. Then take the 2nd row, right seat and move it all the way forward and tilt forward, you probably could "wedge" something long (~7' or more) from the hatch through the 2nd row, and potentially into the first row. This is a work-around to this limitation.
It's not as good as folding 2nd/3rd row seats because that provides a huge cubic storage area that is the most flexible and convenient way to transport anything. Even if the Model-X has more cubic space than the Model-S, if it's broken into separate areas (e.g. frunk, under the seats, between the seats, etc.) it will never be as convenient and flexible as having it all in one cubic place.
I think another big disappointment is that the Model-X had such great potential, that wasn't realized due to this one "feature".
For example, if you take the 2nd row, middle seat and move it all the way to the rear then tilt backwards. Then take the 2nd row, right seat and move it all the way forward and tilt forward, you probably could "wedge" something long (~7' or more) from the hatch through the 2nd row, and potentially into the first row. This is a work-around to this limitation.
It's not as good as folding 2nd/3rd row seats because that provides a huge cubic storage area that is the most flexible and convenient way to transport anything. Even if the Model-X has more cubic space than the Model-S, if it's broken into separate areas (e.g. frunk, under the seats, between the seats, etc.) it will never be as convenient and flexible as having it all in one cubic place.
I think another big disappointment is that the Model-X had such great potential, that wasn't realized due to this one "feature".
ZachShahan
Active Member
I'm not going to go on about this, but I'll end by saying that, as someone trained at a fairly high level in polling, surveying, and statistics, I'd strongly recommend only using the results of those polls for entertainment, not for answers.
The Model X still was a prototype in 2014, no different than how the mules on the streets just a few weeks ago were still prototypes and have changed. The statement already has been proven false though due to the need to keep real mirrors on the car, but even assuming Musk held that statement as an absolute guideline when designing the storage, it may still very well be true. We don't know if the 1.5' lost by the current folding situation has less space than the prototypes shown until we have production vehicles or official numbers in hand. I'm not here to tell you whether to follow through with your sig order or not, that's up to you to know if you'll be happy or not. But I also just think that most (not all) of the negative reactions here will not persist after the vehicle's released and available to see in stores.
It's a very subjective statement, and like all subjective statements it's very likely true in Musk's eyes, but just not true in your eyes and some others' eyes.
I had a non-refundable deposit on a smart ED that I had to cancel after 9 months as what I was actually getting, was not what I had originally ordered. I cancelled it, bought a different EV that makes me happy, and that's that. Sure, it's not my ideal version of a car (a minimum 100 mile range two-seater car with Tesla-like tech features included), but we all have to make some sort of compromise on any car we buy. Nobody produces my ideal version of a car, and probably never will, because it's such a fringe case.
Kudos to dropping a lot of money and faith in Tesla in a vehicle unseen--I know I probably can't do that again--but I don't think it's realistic to assume that the Model X will have 100% of reservation holders happy with the final product. It's closer to concept than probably 95%+ of the vehicles I see revealed, and also one of the few vehicles that's substantially better in some aspects (like performance) than the concept. If it doesn't work for you, I'm sure you're disappointed but at the same time you can't fault Tesla.
I think you have me mistaken. I don't have a position on this particular argument. I have a personal opinion on how I'd like the vehicle, but as far as how the population at large views it? I couldn't possibly make that distinction with what I know.
The thing I do have an issue with (not just here and now, but always) is the improper use of statistics. It's essential to my industry, so I take it seriously.
It doesn't matter who you are. You will never be able to convince me that *zero* evidence for given position beats *greater than zero* evidence to the contrary.
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Okay, then. I can respect that.
Do you share ZachShahan's view that *zero* evidence for given position beats *greater than zero* evidence to the contrary?
ZachShahan
Active Member
I agree that is a large part of the issue. I'd say (if I may) that there are two major issues here and they are being conflated:
1) the product does not seem to fit some people's needs as well as they expected, and they are very upset about that on a personal level. (i don't think that by itself if a broad issue, and i don't think the concerns are indicative of the general market... but i, of course, may be wrong.)
2) Tesla has made a huge communication flop (another one). Bonnie just detailed that very concisely but very well by including statements from Tesla that are clearly false... and weren't corrected. That's a big systemic issue, especially since it follows other communication mistakes (like with autopilot, as just one example). Elon has stated that he wants people who provide useful and critical feedback. Hopefully all of this feedback is making it to him, because strong, absolute, and specific statements that end up being patently false (i.e., In fact, every element of Model X – from the interior to the falcon wing doors – either lives up to or surpasses the prototype we initially unveiled.) are not small in significance, and the systematic problem needs to be addressed before Tesla scales much more... well, should have been addressed years ago, but you know what I mean, right?
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Well, I shouldn't respond since I said I wouldn't
but misleading evidence is worse than zero evidence. You're setting up a question here with an inherent bias by assuming the evidence is "greater than zero."It's extremely common, and it drives statisticians crazy.
We know at least 156 out of 27k reservation holders (0.57%) require/prefer a good cargo capacity comparable to other SUVs, while at least 18 (0.07%) don't care. There's nothing bad about this data. It may be insufficient to reach a conclusion, based on how it was collected, but it's not *bad*.Well, I shouldn't respond since I said I wouldn't
It's extremely common, and it drives statisticians crazy.
For once I'm serious. I actually find it plausible the indicators were Eds was from the seat company and that folding second-row was delayed due to issues and appears in Model X later, making the initial car compromised by comparison.
Now, I'm leaving some room, of course, for the possibility that Tesla will tell us otherwise on September 29th. That's why my recommendation continues to be is everyone wait that before doing anything drastic.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
Toyota Sienna comes with a 4x4 option. Which is, incidentally, the car the Model X was supposed to replace.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Whining is also about tone, which really can't be judged in text... so it really doesn't belong in a forum such as this. (Sorry, pedantic pet peeve popping out.
since you mention pedantic pet peeve I find it odd that you cover Tesla so much and still misuse the term gull wing doors when referring to the model X.
Model X has falcon wing doors.
are you of the mind that Musks opinion on the difference is immaterial and they should just be called gullwing? Why post on a Tesla forum and not use the Tesla terminology?
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So are we in agreement Elon's comment about Tesla's production models always being better than prototypes is out the window? After all, Model X seems to have lost a lot of the stuff the prototype had: folding second row, adjustable seat backs on second row, adjustable head rests on second row, unique concept-like interior replaced with a Model S replica etc etc...
I'm not feeling that Elon quote in the Model X we see.
Now, someone else starting with the letter E... I'm feeling more.
It's not that the seats are compromised or delayed; the design is set to have stowable seats (slide and tilt) but not folding. You perhaps missed that some of us have been told that general production seats won't be folding either. Like it or not (e.g. I can personally live without flat folding seats but have other questions) they have been designed that way.
A question to those who think the second row isn't a big deal - What do you think will happen when Consumer Reports, Edmunds, Car and Driver, etc., do a detailed review of the vehicle and compare it to luxury SUVs from other manufacturers? They will say: Model X is superior in acceleration and handling, efficient, great for hauling 7 people. However, doors prevent use of a roof rack, lack of storage and inability to haul large objects because the second row doesn't fold flat like it does in all other vehicles in its class, etc. The negatives will definitely affect sales among people who have not yet drunk the Tesla kool-aid, and are already worried about "long charging times, limited range," etc....
Regarding the poll - This is a poll on a Tesla forum taken by the most loyal Tesla followers. If a significant percentage of these people will not buy the vehicle because the second row doesn't fold, what do you think will happen when an EV skeptic is cross shopping with ICE vehicles. If anything, I think the poll here paints a more positive picture than what you will get among real world buyers, and that is bad news for Tesla, because many of us will accept almost anything now in order to not drive another ICE vehicle.
Regarding the poll - This is a poll on a Tesla forum taken by the most loyal Tesla followers. If a significant percentage of these people will not buy the vehicle because the second row doesn't fold, what do you think will happen when an EV skeptic is cross shopping with ICE vehicles. If anything, I think the poll here paints a more positive picture than what you will get among real world buyers, and that is bad news for Tesla, because many of us will accept almost anything now in order to not drive another ICE vehicle.
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