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NTSB report on fatal Joshua Brown accident in Florida

Discussion in 'Model S' started by thimel, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. thimel

    thimel Member

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    The NTSB has just released the full report on this accident. There are 538 pages total in 40 documents.
    Here is a link to the full report Accident ID HWY16FH018 Mode Highway occurred on May 07, 2016 in Williston, FL United States Last Modified on June 19, 2017 08:06 Public Released on June 19, 2017 11:06 Total 40 document items.
    I've looked a some of it.
    Document 37 "Driver assistance system - factual report" gives some great information about the type of data logged by the car. For example, speed and steering angle are logged every second.
    Document 39 "electronic devices examination factual report" says there was a laptop in the car that did NOT have a Harry Potter video on it. There was a chrome book that was too damaged to extract data and there was an SD card that did have some music from the Harry Potter movie. This is all relevant because mews media reported that he was watching a Harry Potter movie. This appears not to be the case.
    I didn't read everything, so others may find other interesting information.
     
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  2. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    So no portable DVD player in the car? I remember that was reported. I guess people mistook the Chromebook to be that.
     
  3. feslatan

    feslatan Member

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    One part of the report that bugged me was the finding that the driver had his hands off of the wheel most of the time prior to the accident.

    When I use autopilot I keep my hands on the wheel at all times yet I still get warnings every few minutes and have to 'jiggle' the wheel to get it to register my presence. I fear if such a report was ever written about me it might make the same assertion about my use of autopilot even though it would be incorrect.
     
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  4. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    Yeah unfortunately the hands-off-the-wheel part is only part of the story. It’s his 7+ seconds of lapse of attention that turned out to be a perfect storm and cost him his life. It’s really unfortunate but at the same time, it’s something that every AP user should take as a sobering lesson. Sometimes you can look away for 15 seconds and nothing bad happens. Heck, 99% of the time nothing bad happens. But once in a while, in the right circumstances, AP can really go from ordinary to dangerous in a split second.

    Remember that accident video with the concrete barrier / lane shift?

    This incident definitely made me think about how important it is for me to pay attention and at least keep my eyes on the road even if my hands are off the wheel. It sucks that someone had to die for this cautionary tale. I’m sure he thought he was a great AP user, just like I do. It’s only human to make mistakes.
     
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  5. MTOman

    MTOman Member

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    I thought the same thing when I read it. I still haven't figured out how to hold the wheel comfortably and have it register that I'm holding it so every minute or so it bugs me and I have to jiggle the wheel a little bit to make it realize I'm holding it. I have a method where I hang the weight of my hand on the wheel and that works but gets tiresome quickly, I'd rather just drive than have to hold my hand that way for long periods. Perhaps he was touching the wheel, just not enough for it to register he was holding it. I suppose we'll never know but from my own experience I can say that's entirely possible and if I was in an AP accident they would most certainly conclude I wasn't holding the wheel anymore than required by the nag when in fact I always hold the wheel.
     
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  6. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    I don’t think it’s quite the same thing. The fundamental error here was that a slow moving truck was turning across the road, and the driver had plenty of time to react, and seemed to take no action. Any reasonable driver that was looking, regardless of whether or not he had his hands on the wheel consistently, would’ve taken braking action sooner.

    It’s more a question of whether or not you would’ve noticed a dangerous situation developing 10 seconds ahead of you when relaxing with AP use. I have a feeling a lot of people would find themselves in a situation where they wouldn’t. It’s partly bad luck that it had to have such disastrous consequences for this driver.
     
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  7. MTOman

    MTOman Member

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    I totally agree his lack of attention is what caused the accident, regardless of what his hands were doing. That's why I was surprised they even mention in the report that his hands were off the wheel, it shouldn't have mattered. However, the fact is they did mention it in the report so the point I was trying to make is there's a chance that one part of the report is wrong based on my personal experience with AP not detecting my hand on the wheel when it is.

    It felt to me reading the news about it that they were drawing a comparison between his attention and his hands being on the wheel when that may not be a fair comparison. Just because it didn't detect him holding the wheel for minutes prior to the accident doesn't mean he wasn't paying attention during that time, he may have been watching a movie or he may have been paying attention most of the time and only took his eyes off the road for a few seconds, as you said that's all it takes to have an accident.
     
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  8. MXWing

    MXWing Active Member

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    When you are behind the wheel, it is no one else's responsibility but your own to *protect yourself at all times.*

    I'm sorry Mr. Brown lost his life.
     
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  9. MikeBur

    MikeBur ManualPilot

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    Interesting set of information. I didn't see a conclusion, though the eye witness statement from Terrance Mulligan appears key. It's a little gruesome in places, though as witnesses go he appears to be very accurate and fact-driven. HP Factual Report Attachment 4 - Witness interview

    The truck started turn after car was obviously visible (obvious in that Terrance was behind truck in a lower vehicle and could see the Tesla).

    The Tesla did not appear to slow. Terrance was surprised why anyone was using terms like triple digits, or flying. Speed confirmed as 9 over. The Tesla continued for some time after impact.

    There was no movie or music playing and couldn't understand how truck driver could state this as he was nowhere near stopped Tesla, whereas Terrance checked the Tesla interior for anyone with signs of life

    It was an unfortunate collision, and I'm hopeful we all heed the caution and internalise the attention required when using any driver assistance.
     
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  10. MXWing

    MXWing Active Member

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    Could the driver have been incapacitated or unconscious? If not watching a movie, 7 seconds is an eternity on the road.
     
  11. MikeBur

    MikeBur ManualPilot

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    Could be any number of factors, though incapacitated/unconscious is unlikely given interviews on state of rest/stress from family interviews, toxicology reports, general healthiness, etc.

    Btw - saw best representation of AP warnings criteria in drivers assistance analysis:
    IMG_0318.jpg
     
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  12. MikeBur

    MikeBur ManualPilot

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  13. Korgmatose

    Korgmatose Member

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  14. wcfinvader

    wcfinvader Member

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    I tried finding any information as to what the truck driver got charged with (if anything). The report puts him at fault primarily. I tried searching his name but have been unable to find any additional information. I'm most curious if he was charged with DUI or if it was a minuscule amount so he wasn't. He definitely made a bad call turning when he did but I can't say I haven't seen that from other Truckers who are too impatient to wait and just figure oncoming traffic will slow down as they turn.
     
  15. slipnslider

    slipnslider Member

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    So is tesla in control of the car's data or is the owner?

    If the data clears tesla of wrongdoing they'll release it, but what if the data is incriminating?
     
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  16. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    Well the fault assignment is separate from the primary focus of the NTSB and NHTSA investigation, which is into the performance of Tesla's ADAS in this situation. Fundamentally, even when another driver does something that opens them to an at-fault collision, in an ideal world an ADAS system would be a defensive driver and mitigate that dangerous scenario.


    It sounds like both investigations, however, largely agreed that the Tesla AP1 system's capabilities were in line with the best available on the market.
     
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  17. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    From the report, the car only had part of the data. This data can be retrieved by third parties with access to it, but it is in a proprietary format that needs Tesla's help for decoding.

    The rest of the data they got from Tesla's server by taking part of the data from the car and pattern matching it to data in Tesla's server to find the relevant parts.
     
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  18. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    We can now say conclusively that he was NOT watching harry potter.

    https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/59500-59999/59989/604759.pdf

    The
    National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)Vehicle Recorder Division received the following devices

    Device 1:
    Laptop Computer
    Device 1 Serial Number:
    ECN0CX305107503

    Device 2:
    Chromebook
    Device 2 Serial Number:
    FCNLCX051001518

    Device 3:
    Chromebit
    Device 3 Serial Number:100A
    -
    CM2XXNF

    Device 4:
    Micro
    SD
    Memory Card
    Device 4 Serial Number:
    n/a

    The hard drive was removed from the laptop and was imaged using forensic software. The image of the hard drive was reviewed. The most recent accessed, modified, and created files were from April 6, 2016. The screen of the laptop was broken so the clock drift of the laptop could not be determined. Without the offset of the laptop clock to real time, it could not be concluded whether or not the driver was on the laptop at the time of the crash. No Harry Potter movie file was found on the hard drive of the device

    The micro SD memory card contained photos and music files. The photos were not pertinent to the investigation and the music included parts of the Harry Potter movies’ soundtracks.

    So no proof of a Harry Potter DVD or movie file was documented. No authority in the case has said he was watching a movie. I think we can safely say he wasn't watching a movie.
     
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  19. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 Model S P85

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    #19 Skotty, Jun 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
    As I've said before, a movie playing in the car is mostly irrelevant, because even if there was, there is no way to know if he was watching it or just listening to it, or even completely ignoring it. Would you even be able to tell if it was actually playing? Maybe it was there for a prior passenger. I listen to movies in my car all the time while driving. Lately I've been mostly listening to the DVD commentary tracks so I can hear interesting information about how the producers, directors, and actors filmed the movie. I keep the screen closed. Hopefully I never get in a fatal accident, as apparently I'll be blamed for watching a movie while driving (yes, my death would be less offensive to me than a widely held incorrect accusation that my carelessness caused it).

    Not saying this guy wasn't watching a movie. Maybe he was. I'm just saying there is no clear evidence, so people should be careful not to take such suggestion as fact or imply such to others.
     
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  20. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    Did you miss my post? No DVD or movie file was found in the vehicle. He most certainly wasn't watching or listening to a DVD or a ripped version of the movie. See post #18 two posts above this one for details.
     
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