NTSB report on fatal Joshua Brown accident in Florida

[CSFTN]

Findings of THC in the truck drivers bloodstream suggest DUI if that definition applies in Florida ...

Unless the testing has changed, blood levels of THC don't necessarily indicate intoxication. The test is sensitive enough that it can merely mean you have ingested/inhaled THC within the last 5 days (IIRC). There's even a version that can go back as far as 3 weeks.

 

[Swift]

I've read enough NTSB reports to read between the lines. It appears to me that the NTSB wasn't too happy that they had to have Tesla's help to decode the on-board parameters and get other parameters from Tesla's database. They went out of their way to point out that the vehicle did not have (nor was required to have) an Event Data Recorder (EDR) which made their job more difficult compared to aviation investigations where the EDRs (cockpit voice recorder - CVR, and flight data recorder - FDR) are standardized.

With all the variations in aircraft manufacturers, types, generations, I don't believe that FDR data is as standardized as people think. There are often times where the manufacturer is involved in the data recovery and interpretive processes.

 

[Skotty]

It's the first automobile fatality in history where the vehicle was under 2-axis automatic control. It warrants a full multi-level investigation, as it has implications for all future automatic vehicle control systems.

I read most of the entire docket. Even though at this point, it is only a factual docket (i.e. no conclusions or recommendations yet), I've read enough NTSB reports to read between the lines. It appears to me that the NTSB wasn't too happy that they had to have Tesla's help to decode the on-board parameters and get other parameters from Tesla's database. They went out of their way to point out that the vehicle did not have (nor was required to have) an Event Data Recorder (EDR) which made their job more difficult compared to aviation investigations where the EDRs (cockpit voice recorder - CVR, and flight data recorder - FDR) are standardized.

I predict that one of the recommendations in the final docket will be that vehicles designed for the higher levels of autonomous driving should be required to have a standardized EDR that needs no manufacturer assistance to retrieve the data from.

That would actually be a good result I think, and one hopefully Tesla would happily comply with. This technology is supposed to make our lives better and safer, and it's in everyone's best interest to cooperate and collaborate to that end.

 

[Nikxice]

I haven't read the whole report, but my initial take on this accident is unchanged from last year. The trucker fully expected oncoming traffic to see his wide turn. Almost every driver has experienced this scenario. Under normal circumstances, approaching vehicles would slow down to adjust for this kind of road blockage. Unfortunately, what is seemingly normal today is the proliferation of distracted drivers.

 

[Skotty]

It's just after months of people saying he was watching a DVD it should be repeated loud and clear that there was no DVD player or DVD media in the car.

The report found a laptop, a chromebook, and some SD cards. None of which had a movie on them.

If you want to talk about the theoretical I think it's only fair you add a disclaimer that makes it clear what the known facts are before or in addition to any theory you want to discuss.

Nothing against you or your writing style or your desire to discuss that concept. It's just this well has been tainted already and we need damage control to stop the spread.

You are coming dangerously close to an argument with me over something I am pretty sure we are agreeing on.

 

[chillaban]

I haven't read the whole report, but my initial take on this accident is unchanged from last year. The trucker fully expected oncoming traffic to see his wide turn. Almost every driver has experienced this scenario. Under normal circumstances, approaching vehicles would slow down to adjust for this kind of road blockage. Unfortunately, what is seemingly normal today is the proliferation of distracted drivers.

I don't think the report has any new revelations in that regard. It was more the other information that it shed such as:

- Fairly comprehensive log output from the Tesla, particularly shining light on the driver's interaction with the car (e.g. that it was nearly nonexistent -- 30 seconds of steering for 40 minutes of driving)
- In-depth analysis of Tesla's AP features on a technical level, including the logic for whether or not nags show up.
- Truck driver toxicology report, showing a substantial blood concentration of THC, which was not previously reported. And his refusal to cooperate with the investigation.
- Forensic analysis of the contents of the car, which makes the truck driver's "Harry Potter" story seem less and less likely
- More analysis into whether or not the road itself was designed correctly

 

[NikeWings]

It was more the other information that it shed such as:
- Truck driver toxicology report, showing a substantial blood concentration of THC, which was not previously reported. And his refusal to cooperate with the investigation.

Yep, I learned the truck driver was higher than therapeutically high by >2x, actually exceeding levels deemed toxic.
His Harry Potter-related accusations were apparently just hallucinations.

 

[MikeBur]

I think the bigger problem is that:

(1) Tesla gave that interpretation of the data. If they wanted to orchestrate a cover up, they could've given another decoding of the bits that had a more favorable interpretation.
(2) Tesla had to recover the data from the computer. If they wanted to hide data, they could've conveniently curated what to give the NTSB or not. Or say that it was just not recoverable.


With that said, those are pure hypotheticals. Obstructing a NTSB investigation sounds criminal, and I would not imagine Tesla doing that for the sake of covering up one death.

I cannot believe Tesla would obstruct this investigation in any way. Irrespective of interference, or misleading, the NTSB being a felony* I see absolutely no data to support such a supposition; whereas there are multiple examples of tesla holding themselves' to a higher, more proactive, stance on potential safety issues.

I agree with the earlier comments that there is a likelihood to push for standards here, both in terms of hardware consistency and data formats. Requiring named individuals to be part of accident investigations is an expensive proposition... ask Boeing or Airbus

* PG&E Found Guilty Of Obstruction Of An Agency Proceeding And Multiple Violations Of The Natural Gas Pipeline Safety Act

 

[MTOman]

Did anyone else notice the discrepancy in whether or not the Chromebook data was recovered successfully, or has this already been discussed somewhere and I missed it?

This section says "Information was extracted using the manufacturer’s software normally, without difficulty":

While the section right below it says "The Chromebook was too damaged for normal data recovery":

So, was the data recovered from the Chromebook or not?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Did anyone else notice the discrepancy in whether or not the Chromebook data was recovered successfully, or has this already been discussed somewhere and I missed it?

This section says "Information was extracted using the manufacturer’s software normally, without difficulty":
View attachment 232280

While the section right below it says "The Chromebook was too damaged for normal data recovery":
View attachment 232281

So, was the data recovered from the Chromebook or not?

For the laptop they talked about checking the clock on the screen vs the computer/motherboard. I suspect that is the same case here (first part is about extracting data from the screen, second is the computer/motherboard).

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think the bigger problem is that:

(1) Tesla gave that interpretation of the data. If they wanted to orchestrate a cover up, they could've given another decoding of the bits that had a more favorable interpretation.
(2) Tesla had to recover the data from the computer. If they wanted to hide data, they could've conveniently curated what to give the NTSB or not. Or say that it was just not recoverable.


With that said, those are pure hypotheticals. Obstructing a NTSB investigation sounds criminal, and I would not imagine Tesla doing that for the sake of covering up one death.

1) Is true, but that requires a bad faith manufacturer. It would also potentially work only once (since the next investigation that happens may uncover that inconsistency). As posted by others, it is a felony to obstruct a NTSB investigation.

Even if there is standardization, they are likely to work towards standardizing the minimum generic variables (but that still leaves room for a ton of proprietary variables). NHTSA rule suggests 15 minimum essential data elements recorded (and up to 30 additional). The standardized are going to be generic stuff like airbag activation, acceleration, brake application, etc. The example I gave of autopilot parameters are unlikely to fall under this (it would be difficult to standardize too).
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/edrfria.pdf

While the FDR for airplanes are standardized, it seems to still allow proprietary parameters to be stored (which may potentially be useful in an investigation). The NTSB would then still be dependent on the manufacturer being honest about the conversion for the proprietary parameters.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/process/Documents/FDR_Handbook.pdf

There are other ways to cheat, even with standardized recorders. You can have the car computer record fake data when it potentially leads to manufacturer liability (for example something that Tesla has been accused of before: when a car crashes into a wall from a standstill, which so far has been 100% driver error according to logs).

2) This is not true. The data was in an internal SD card, which the NTSB was able to retrieve all the data from. The only missing part is translating that data (which required a proprietary tool from Tesla).

From Page 10-5:
"Approximately 510 MB of data was recovered from the vehicle by removal and duplication of data stored on the GTW internal SD card. This data was composed of 87 files organized in 8 folders and stored on the SD card in a MS Windows readable format. The data included 8 image files representing data from the forward facing camera. A small subset of this data was stored in ASCII format. But the vast majority, including the vehicle log files containing all of the parametric data discussed in this report, was stored in a proprietary binary format that required the use of in-house manufacturer software tools for conversion into engineering units."