yea, you are confusing Tesla’s legal liability with the expectations that Elon has created and reinforced on his Twitter.
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- Thread starter Drrobmiller
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yea, you are confusing Tesla’s legal liability with the expectations that Elon has created and reinforced on his Twitter.
I h
I fail to see the need for the drama through this process, but if you have room in your life for this much complaining please continue shaking your fist at the sky. I'd much prefer to read posts talking about the actual software than complaining that CEO'S do what they do. Can we get a subsection for that? Has nothing at all to do with autonomy, adds nothing positive to my day, and forces me to scroll through hundreds of the same post to get to anything of interest or value related to the title of the post or subsection.
No... I won't. I signed onto a contract that involved me giving someone money with no actual promises, in the contract. In most circumstances it would be dumb but i got it as a christmas present to myself lol. Auto lane changes alone are almost worth what I paid for fsd. I got hw3 for 'free' despite no actual legal obligation for tesla to do so. I've used ap for around 60k km over 3 years and each release it either improves or increases the odd. Two updates ago phantom braking completely stopped for me (after getting worse as they were in hindsight, obviously working through tesla vision). Sometime in the near future it will do everything it promised, just not very well to start. Then it will continue to get better and shore up odd. At some point down the road, Tesla will stop supporting my car as the hardware will just be too old.
I fail to see the need for the drama through this process, but if you have room in your life for this much complaining please continue shaking your fist at the sky. I'd much prefer to read posts talking about the actual software than complaining that CEO'S do what they do. Can we get a subsection for that? Has nothing at all to do with autonomy, adds nothing positive to my day, and forces me to scroll through hundreds of the same post to get to anything of interest or value related to the title of the post or subsection.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Well, that's mainly true if you only listen to PART of what he says.
He told everyone, years ago, to not believe him on dates for things he's never done before.
Yet everyone keeps ignoring THAT thing he said and focusing on the dates he already told you he had no actual idea of being able to meet or not.
Elon Musk on 60 minutes said:
Now replace "made a mass produced car" with "made an L5 driving system" or anything else he's guessing at dates on and the same thing applies.
mikes_fsd
Banned
No, I'm not confusing those two things, but a lot of people on this forum are.
Good point lol....No, I'm not confusing those two things, but a lot of people on this forum are.
You are also linking people to the current AP description page, when Tesla had a completely different page for 3 years, so you're just as one sided.No, I'm not confusing those two things, but a lot of people on this forum are.
How come nobody has ever been able to explain how a contract with no performance from Tesla required is a valid contract? The "Tesla owes you nothing for $5k" isn't a great argument.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
As one of those 3 years prior buyers- Tesla absolutely owes me something, there's just no required timeline for them to deliver it.
What about when the website in 2019 it would be feature complete by the end of the year... then in 2020... now again in 2021.
There have been expectations set by Tesla, outside of Elon's tweets.
What does this even mean? If Tesla delivers FSD to your great grandkids estate, they met their end of the deal?
In a case where no time frame is defined, a court is likely to find against the contract author. It could be easily argued that a reasonable assumption from the buyer would be in the life of the vehicle, or the buyer would have zero reason to purchase. Which would be about 15 years. We're 5 years in.
It's actually against Tesla's interest to have not defined a timeline, as they are now at the will of a court's interpretation. It does not mean that there is an infinite timeline. The buyer put down money for some reason.
That is an investment, not a purchase. Tesla did not sell this as an investment. You bought functionality, not shares, and Tesla never explained the risk involved nor that it may never work and your investment may be lost.
Shareholders paid for Tesla to work on FSD, not car customers. Tesla can't even use the money to fund development.
I disagree. Tesla never gave a specific date it would be released.... so they really have no obligation to release by a certain date. When you bought it they gave you a specific set of features and said you get more features eventually when they worked, as long as you owned the car.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I did not say infinite timeline.
I said no specific REQUIRED timeline.
So if they ever made any statement that the car I bought won't be getting at least L4 with fairly broad ODD (if not L5), I'd be owed compensation then.
Beyond that, if they just keep "working on it" without such a statement then absolutely if it goes to court you'd likely see a reasonable person standard applied.
I've said that in these kinds of threads for a long while now.
Likely they'd also subpoena Tesla for internal/development emails and notes to see if there's any place in there they non-publicly admit they can't do it.
(the fact no Q has filed such a suit suggests to me such a case isn't finding much support to file currently though).
We're also, as you point out, a LOT of years away from average life of vehicle still.
Infinite and 10 years from now is the same thing for a 2018 model 3
I think a better gauge would be 1/2 of the average length of ownership of a new vehicle. That's roughly three years since the average length of ownership of a new car is 71.4 months.
With a 2018 Model 3 (what I have) it's nearly there.
So lets take stock of what I bought versus what was delivered
EAP:
AP -> Meets minimal viability expectations. The biggest drawbacks are lack of smoothness in de-acceleration, and phantom braking. The current phantom braking annoyances seem to be maps related, but Tesla gives no mechanism to the customer to inform them of a map error.
NoA -> does not meet expectations - From a legal perspective it does do what it promises when it works, but it doesn't work well enough for me to be satisfied with my purchase.
Smart Summons -> Total and complete failure
Auto-Lane Change -> Meets expectations, but could be vastly improved if the positions of the cars around the vehicle were better especially with semi's. I have hope that Tesla Vision will fix this.
Cost: $5K
Estimated Delivered Value: $2.5K
Loss: 2.5K
FSD:
HW3 Upgrade -> Mine was delivered with HW2.5, and one of the promises was the HW3 upgrade. This met expectation.
Traffic light/sign Response -> It feels like its a preview release. I do enjoy it, but I find myself having to turn it off when the majority of my driving will be freeway due to too many false positives. My favorite part is the chime on green even though I'm not one of those people with an issue of not going when the light turns green. I just like the game of beating the chime.
FSD Beta -> As a customer this angered me because they selected 1K (or more) "special" customers to give it to, and then made totally false promises to give it to the rest of us.
Cost: $3K
Estimated Delivered value: $1.5K
So in summary I feel like Tesla delivered on value about 50% which isn't terrible when it comes to options on new vehicles. If I ignore the overpromise of FSD that was clearly beyond the price then the biggest issue is the lack of effort to make the current features better. Like we don't even have a proper reporting tool, and Elon is completely delusional about the current state of NoA.
If I look at it from a customer retention problem the solution is very simple. That solution is to simply allow FSD to be transferable to a new Tesla vehicle while also not allowing anyone to buy FSD anymore. So FSD becomes either something you're grandfathered into (in having a car with FSD or buying a used one where the owner opts to give it up) or something you pay a subscription for.
Basically they'd have to give FSD ownership to the paying customer which is the opposite of what they do now. What they currently do is they play silly games with FSD where they delete it from vehicles they auction (or sell to dealers), and by appearances they add it to used vehicles they sell (why so many of them have FSD). They also don't seem to give fair value for it on a trade-in.
Long term the biggest damage Tesla is doing is to themselves as they're not allowing customers to continuously upgrade to something better. Instead they've locked us into an old sensor suite that is so bad that Tesla deleted the radar with a shrug. I have a 2018 with zero upgrade mobility not because I can't money&desire wise, but because Tesla decided to retain legacy HW for considerably longer than my average car ownership. About the only thing FSD related that is better about the new model S is it has IR lights for the interior facing camera.
Heck that $3K I paid for FSD might save me $40K in sticking with the same car for the 10+ years it will take them to achieve any resemblance of self-driving.
powertoold
Active Member
So is this Elon acknowledging that "two weeks" means "I have no idea, and it has a high likelihood of never, ever happening"?
This is perfect. Now all those Tesla shills can say "see, what Elon has been saying for the last 4 years" is "I have no idea" not "2 weeks". We just didn't have the secret decoder ring until July 2021.
This is perfect. Now all those Tesla shills can say "see, what Elon has been saying for the last 4 years" is "I have no idea" not "2 weeks". We just didn't have the secret decoder ring until July 2021.
There's a reasonable expectation for the feature to be delivered during the first half of the useful life of the car. If they can't deliver, then they must pay back the purchase cost and damages.
There's very little wiggle room here.
Well see. They did deliver some aspects of what they Define as full self driving, so I guess it’s a question for a judge to determine.
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