Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[betterhaircut]

The Ombudsman contacted me just now - took down the details of my complaint and said they were planning to speak with the MTO today. Said they would have an answer for me by EOW.

They specifically asked if I wanted a refund of my deposit or the rebate for my car once received. Wonder what everyone else was saying.

 

[dj_gon]

You want to spend $69,000.00 on a car but worried about $2,000.00 per year in fuel cost over electricity? There is far more cost in depreciation on the car than this little amount of fuel cost. If you are buying the car to help the environment that's one thing but it does not make economic sense at this point to buy a new EV. Really if you care about the environment you should use public transportation and reduce all your transportation needs. That's way farther than I am willing to go at this point.

I like living in a bedroom community and commuting to work.

You're right. I know the the savings from fuel to electricity alone will not justify an EV purchase. I was hoping to reduce my carbon footprint by using an EV instead of an ICE vehicle. I was going to get onto the Green ON solar program to further reduce my carbon footprint until it got canned too.

Unfortunately, I need to drive to various locations from time to time at work, so public transit doesn't make sense. Also, I live in the suburbs where the nearest bus stop is like 20 minutes away by walking. Who doesn't want to use public transit if it's readily available like some of other major cities in the world? But GTA is just not one of them...

 

[Switzch]

The Ombudsman contacted me just now - took down the details of my complaint and said they were planning to speak with the MTO today. Said they would have an answer for me by EOW.

They specifically asked if I wanted a refund of my deposit or the rebate for my car once received. Wonder what everyone else was saying.

I really hope you said that you want the rebate for the car (and charger and charger installation) - lets not forget about that.

 

[jkirkwood001]

Can you change cancelled and bought ICE car to cancelled and keeping my ICE car? Both respondents are keeping their current vehicle but this was the best option so they picked it. And maybe add another option for cancelling and buying an ICE car?

Good points, @haromaem, @dj_gon and @mjavor. I updated the options as follows (you shouldn't have to resubmit if the updated wording is still representative of your choice):

​

I didn't split the first option because this is the same result as far as the impact of the rebate goes (this thread). Hope this is OK, @lscalzo.

 

[adaptabl]

You're right. I know the the savings from fuel to electricity alone will not justify an EV purchase. I was hoping to reduce my carbon footprint by using an EV instead of an ICE vehicle. I was going to get onto the Green ON solar program to further reduce my carbon footprint until it got canned too.

Unfortunately, I need to drive to various locations from time to time at work, so public transit doesn't make sense. Also, I live in the suburbs where the nearest bus stop is like 20 minutes away by walking. Who doesn't want to use public transit if it's readily available like some of other major cities in the world? But GTA is just not one of them...

Many of us are in that position. Really if we wanted to reduce our carbon footprint we would move to an area where transportation would not be needed. Not picking on anyone as I would not make that sacrifice. I enjoy my personal car, the privacy, not having to deal with smelly people. public transit is just not for me.

 

[jkirkwood001]

Many of us are in that position. Really if we wanted to reduce our carbon footprint we would move to an area where transportation would not be needed. Not picking on anyone as I would not make that sacrifice. I enjoy my personal car, the privacy, not having to deal with smelly people. public transit is just not for me.

Mostly agree. But it's not an either / or for me, @dj_gon. I do use my bike and public transit often (typically diesel-powered right now), even train and bus between cities. But I also need an individual vehicle to get to our cottage on the weekends, transport large things, drive my kids / grandkids places. I could use ride-share (again, electric not generally available), but that's an individual choice. It'll be great when there are fleets of EVs available for ride-share in major cities. Until then, this is my part (looking forward to lending my EV out to "spread the gospel" to family and friends!).

 

[BKR1986]

Does anyone happen to have the contact for the Ombudsman?
There's a general email address online but I'm not sure if it's the one everyone's using. I'd also like to contact them as well. I feel the more people reaching out, the better. Telling them that you're after a refund is a complete waste of time - Tesla has already said they're offering refunds. The Ombudsman will just say "Ok cool, case closed - you've gotten the refund that you requested". We all need to be clear that we're looking for a rebate and ONLY a rebate.

 

[dj_gon]

Good points, @haromaem, @dj_gon and @mjavor. I updated the options as follows (you shouldn't have to resubmit if the updated wording is still representative of your choice):

View attachment 320106
​

I didn't split the first option because this is the same result as far as the impact of the rebate goes (this thread). Hope this is OK, @lscalzo.

Sorry, I think I've picked the last option to wait for a cheaper Tesla. Please change it to the first option for me. Thanks.

 

[betterhaircut]

I really hope you said that you want the rebate for the car (and charger and charger installation) - lets not forget about that.

Definitely said I wanted the rebate for the car. I plan to purchase but I really need the rebate to make it justifiable. I forgot to mention the charger and charger installation. Thanks for reminding me - I will call them back.

 

[jkirkwood001]

Sorry, I think I've picked the last option to wait for a cheaper Tesla. Please change it to the first option for me. Thanks.

I think you can edit your response, no?

 

[betterhaircut]

Does anyone happen to have the contact for the Ombudsman?
There's a general email address online but I'm not sure if it's the one everyone's using. I'd also like to contact them as well. I feel the more people reaching out, the better. Telling them that you're after a refund is a complete waste of time - Tesla has already said they're offering refunds. The Ombudsman will just say "Ok cool, case closed - you've gotten the refund that you requested". We all need to be clear that we're looking for a rebate and ONLY a rebate.

I just used this page and filed a complaint: Contact Us - Ontario Ombudsman. You're welcome to call them as I imagine that is much quicker. i made sure to emphasize that I wanted the rebate of the car. They also asked me if I went to other outlets prior and had told them of my many emails to the MTO, MPP, MFO, etc.

 

[sitter_k]

Many of us are in that position. Really if we wanted to reduce our carbon footprint we would move to an area where transportation would not be needed. Not picking on anyone as I would not make that sacrifice. I enjoy my personal car, the privacy, not having to deal with smelly people. public transit is just not for me.

Exactly, just because you care about the environment doesn't mean you must take public transit, become a vegan, live in a pod and wear used locally sourced clothing. You don't have go full hog, you can take half measures like buying a model 3 and using your green bin, the more people like us that buy them the more that get passed on to the used market who are also concerned with costs such as depreciation and fuel too. It doesn't make financial sense to drive a brand new EV yet but we're getting closer, especially used and Short Range.

 

[dj_gon]

I think you can edit your response, no?

Got it... !

 

[sitter_k]

I just used this page and filed a complaint: Contact Us - Ontario Ombudsman. You're welcome to call them as I imagine that is much quicker. i made sure to emphasize that I wanted the rebate of the car. They also asked me if I went to other outlets prior and had told them of my many emails to the MTO, MPP, MFO, etc.

I Believe everyone should call the ombudsman office. It's a very quick phone call with no on hold wait time. You can explain your predicament and how you believe the EHVIP cancellation towards tesla being treated differently than dealerships is unfair.

Phone: 1-800-263-1830
Outside Ontario: 416-586-3300

Fax: 416-586-3485
TTY (Teletypewriter): 1-866-411-4211
E-mail: [email protected]

 

[Matt-CYTR]

Good points! Thanks-good to hear from someone that owns one...it does help in my decision making!

I’m probably still in the “honeymoon phase” but before the 3 we got a Chevy Volt. Already owning a EV (yes I know it’s technically a PHEV) really made it hard when I needed to decided what to do. Even though the Volt is not on the same level as the 3, driving in electric (which I did almost exclusively) made it hard to even consider going back to an ICE car. EV are just better cars, no matter who you get it from, and obviously Tesla has even better tech both for the drivetrain and the car itself. I’ve had no issues with the Volt, but the 3 is 1000000 times the car the volt is and I’m happy with my decision.

At the end of the day though, it really does come down to affordability. The cost of ownership is lower, but it’s not a small car payment by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[jules_78th]

Alright so for the last few days I've been reaching out to my network within MTO about this (on top of filing a complaint with the Ombudsman) and received some guidance from a member of the Cap and Trade Program. After a few phone conversations with him, he just sent me the following via email.


"As mentioned on my voicemail, the EV rebate is outside the scope of the Ministry of the Environment, Conservation and Parks. This being said, the following link Ontario Central Forms Repository - Form Identification should offer you some assistance and direction.

In the above link, there are two .pdf’s. One is a guide and the other appears to be an application. If you have any additional questions, there are email addresses in the attached documents which would likely be your best bet for getting answers.

Hope this helps and it works out for you,


Help Desk Coordinator

Cap and Trade Program

Ministry of the Environment, Conservation and Parks

40 St. Clair Ave West, 4th floor

1-888-217-3326

[email protected]"


It looks like the link is the form that the dealership would use (same form that was up before on the EHVIP site), so there's fields there that an individual like us vs dealership can populate and submit. There is also an email address there to ask if we can submit and be eligible. I mean did anyone get a clear answer from someone within the program that the line below does not qualify non dealers to get the rebate?

• Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

I’m probably still in the “honeymoon phase” but before the 3 we got a Chevy Volt. Already owning a EV (yes I know it’s technically a PHEV) really made it hard when I needed to decided what to do. Even though the Volt is not on the same level as the 3, driving in electric (which I did almost exclusively) made it hard to even consider going back to an ICE car. EV are just better cars, no matter who you get it from, and obviously Tesla has even better tech both for the drivetrain and the car itself. I’ve had no issues with the Volt, but the 3 is 1000000 times the car the volt is and I’m happy with my decision.

At the end of the day though, it really does come down to affordability. The cost of ownership is lower, but it’s not a small car payment by any stretch of the imagination.

The economics of Model 3 vs comparable ICE car = Win for Model 3 (i.e. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti).

However, compared to a lower cost Honda, Toyota, Hyundai etc. - these lower entry cost ICE cars are more economical until you factor in the pollution factor which is not advertised on the sticker price. Of course, one can argue the battery pack is a source of pollution also but it's housed in a controlled environment and the metals can be recycled and made into a new battery. The carbon and all those other toxic gases are an immediate output into the air we all breathe by these low cost vehicles. Look at China - huge smog problems country wide from cars. They're pushing hard on EVs now as a reactionary move - imagine where'd they'd be if they pushed EVs in the early 2000's.

For me, it's really an ideological purchase - this is my brand. I along with many here want to be eco-friendly and support a cool tech-car-solar-battery-hole drilling-space exploring-Mars colonizing company. Those are my justification to vote with the available free capital at my disposal .

Also, time saved ... going to the gas station every week in and out probably 5-15minutes depending on the lines.. that'll add up real quick. I cannot reduce my commute times, however I can eliminate the trips to the gas station + service center for oil changes.

Also, if FSD ever becomes a thing... Imagine the commute to anywhere... Enter a destination, take a nap, get a chime and wake up to whatever it is you're doing! Awesome! (This will likely be in one of them boring tunnels).

 

[M3AB]

Good points! Thanks-good to hear from someone that owns one...it does help in my decision making!

Sorry for the long post...

I'm a huge believer in financial fitness. Too many times I see people getting trapped in the hedonistic treadmill to keep up with what society deems as success. Sharing a bit of my purchase thought-process if it helps:

• Originally family of 2, with a wife that wanted to purchase an SUV
• I personally was looking at "upgrading our car" which was model year 2013 purchased in 2012 back in 2015 in line with a "promotion" from work (treat myself with an expensive toy)
• Looked at the S3 (too small for my wife as we were planning to start a family), A3-Etron (found out it didn't start in -25C, no battery temp management system and only went 30km max on Elec. only). Our commute (dual income same work location) was 8km each way...
• Itching to spend money, but heard about the Model 3 reveal and seemed interesting. Wife still wanted an SUV to drive future kids future friends, waiting for XC60 refresh to see what pricing would be like or XC40. X1 maybe, but X3 was too expensive and I grew up in small sedans (3 series, accord -tinier than today's civic!), where we took road trips across NA with my grand parents as well; no issues, not buying into the SUV marketing
• More I learnt about EVs the more I was able to convince myself and wife that EV was the future, looked at i3 (expensive and range was not enough, would need an ICE backup even though 90% of driving was covered -> car2go for day trips not convenient enough)
• Made up mind and reserved in early 2017, estimating that I would need to save $~75k to pay in cash, started increasing additional cash reserves that I'd been building since 2015
• Kid born while waiting thinking of the trade offs between dropping $75k on a car vs. kid's future education (private school debate with wife). Decide that private school system supports inequality, and "justify" that donation to Telsa would be a better use of money.
• Calculate gas savings based on premium fuel and decide that I can use savings to upgrade home panel to 200A also can be used for marketing house as "future ready", $3k invstement would be recovered in first year (note gas savings are after-tax! for us that's ~8% ongoing return so decide to keep the car for 8 years min to "feel good about the decision financially")
• Alternate permutations, of AWD, SR, LR to figure out if we really should be spending so much on a car. Decide to go from 2 cars to 1 car to running costs low, and "bet the farm on EV reliability", AWD not required as we used to drive a RWD 3 series in winter + FWD hatch and know that winter tires are the most critical element to winter driving
• Settle on LR RWD with no options as the others are upgradable in the future via software and an $80k is a little extravagant in our minds even for dual high-income earners (not science more just personal opinion).
• Get the news that the car is coming early to Canada, struggle again to decide between private school or the model 3, as I'm more and more not a fan of working (FIRE mindset). Also look at opportunity cost of dumping it into the market ($75k in 10 years could be $122k or alternatively at 4% dividends, +$250 per month for the foreseeable future), but got to live a little
• Resolve that we will need at least 1 car and that we could offset ~$200 per month in gas spending also insurance savings from 2 to 1 consolidation. Hit the Order button.
• Receive call, write huge bank draft, take car
• Love car (step change in mobility, comfort and features), wife would not go back, more than enough room for baby + stuff + grandparents
• Read/learn more and realize that our Model 3 could be my kid's first car in 15 years given reliability, happy with purchase (BMW was 12 years old so not a stranger to keeping things for a while...), hope by then there will be lots of cheap & good EVs to choose from for ourselves.

 

[lscalzo]

I think you can edit your response, no?

Yes you can edit your responses when you go back in

Good points, @haromaem, @dj_gon and @mjavor. I updated the options as follows (you shouldn't have to resubmit if the updated wording is still representative of your choice):

View attachment 320106
​

I didn't split the first option because this is the same result as far as the impact of the rebate goes (this thread). Hope this is OK, @lscalzo.

Totally awesome, I just wanted to get all the info in one place make changes as you see fit. I am happy to see that it is being used and helpful.

.

 

[thesaadone]

What are typical times for people to receive their rebate after submitting the application? Curious to know if anyone took deliver after the 11th and applied for the rebate..