That came out wrong, I didn't mean it's bad because it's cheap and easy. I meant those as positive. But it's not the best.
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Optimum No Rise and Wax - Trying to avoid swirl marks
- Thread starter Zidarich
- Start date
That came out wrong, I didn't mean it's bad because it's cheap and easy. I meant those as positive. But it's not the best.
Yikes. It's pretty common knowledge you should only use ONR (or any rinseless wash) on a relatively clean car. That's why experienced detailers have a pre-foam stage to loosen and remove contaminants before they do a contact wash.
Simply stating it's not the best doesn't help anyone. Why do you feel that way? What would you recommend instead? It's always good to learn more and explore others' opinions.
Bill Foster
I'm going home!
Foam cannons are used by detailers because they create value. Customers are impressed because visually it’s impressive, so they can charge more.
You would be surprised at the amount of dirt on cars I’ve wash with ONR. It does a very good job of encapsulating dirt and preventing scratches
I'm not diminishing ONR. It really does do a great job encapsulating dirt and preventing scratches. Though it is not as foolproof as you make it out to be. If any of the cars you washed really were dirty, then I suggest you examine the paint with a good detailing light.
For any of you looking for advice on preventing swirls, please hose your car off a little to get rid of larger loose contaminants. This is what really screws you over later. Additionally, use a drying aid or sealant like Optimum synthetic sealant.
Foam cannons are a gimmick. Detailers use them because they look cool, and customers expect to see suds. It's the same reason people still wash their cars with dish soap, or that you see body soap advertised for it's "rich lather."
Suds (foam) don't do anything to clean a car, they are simply caused by air being 'whipped' into the solution that you're using. If anything is diminishes the amount of actual product on the paint and working on the dirt.
I've heard everything from claims like, the foam creates a chemical reaction that makes the soap stronger, or the foam is low density and that somehow creates a capillary action moving the dirt off the paint. It's all marketing.
Essentially what we're trying to accomplish, is to dissolve the dirt (or more accurately break bonds between it and your paint) and then lubricate the paint so it can be removed from the paint safely. Some chemicals are great at breaking down dirt. Acetone for example will clean just about anything (just not safely) but it flashes off and provides no lubrication. Dish soap is another. It provides fairly decent cleaning power, but isn't safe to use regularly because it doesn't have the lubricating properties needed (among other reasons.)
This is where modern wash solutions come in, and for the sake of this thread we're talking about ONR. They're specifically designed to be high in lubricity while still cleaning adequately. They are literally designed to be used without the need to prewash, and unless the car is caked in mud none of that should be necessary.
Here's a picture of a filthy car I washed using only ONR
Now, with all that said. Nothing is perfect. Swirls and scratches are a possibility any time something that's harder than your clearcoat touches the clearcoat. I've seen cars that were exclusively washed via sprayers and air dried end up swirled, simply because the act of rinsing off the dirt was enough to move it around and create swirls.
I've been using ONR since roughly 2005, and I've still never found a better product, and for that matter, I've never found it deficient. When I come across a car this covered in heavy dirt, I may give a quick spray with a diluted solution (2 OZ ONR to 32 ounces of water) or hit it with Optimum power clean. The reality is that if you've got a car caked in mud, you've already got paint damage simply from the act of that mud getting on there. There isn't a perfectly safe way to remove large chunks of rocks and whatever crap may currently be sitting in there. You can prewash, or spray something on there that dwells, but ultimately the crap needs to come off, and no soap provides enough lubrication to encapsulate pebbles.
In regards to CQuartz. I have nothing against it. I think it's a good product for people. I've been coating cars since the early part of the decade, and I'm always looking for the new hotness. From what I've seen it's still beaten by consumer level products like Opti-gloss etc.
Fernand
Active Member
I've been going through the material safety data sheets from 3M. It's
great because they reveal what's in each product. I respect that old
school professional approach, rather than the mystery voodoo of the
younger companies that all have "the best" secret formulas.
We are babes in the woods, and we're getting jacked around by an
industry that's been feeding off car fans for half a century, like vampires.
What struck me is how totally different the compositions are, even
within e.g. one 39000 line of end-user waxes. Their cleaner wax has
a lot of water ;-) abrasive ceramics, silicones and siloxanes. It's meant
to do a light abrasive polishing for swirls etc, and leave a synthetic wax.
They also make just the abrasive portion as a 103, 203 and 303 type
for more professional use (103 is finest), and a light consumer version.
They offer a QuickWax, a Synthetic Wax Protectant for longer lasting
bonding to the finish, like 6+ months, and my favorite Perfect it Show
Car Paste Wax. But wait, they also offer a Liquid Perfect it Show Car
Wax. And, guess what, it's a totally different composition. It's going
to create a polymer coat that will last longer. But only their paste wax
contains the carnauba. And THAT's what gives that luscious thick
shine, though it won't hold up to washings like their liquid formula.
But note that it's the one they recommend as the final waxing after
full polishing in their more professional use table. My head is spinning,
and that's just dealing with end-user "wax" offerings, 3M alone makes
hundreds of products to make our cars shiny.
Now we do have one advantage: ONR as a superior washing medium
that pulls dirt off very well and doesn't tear down the wax layer as much
as old style detergents. So whichever coating/wax we pick can last longer.
E.g. I just pre-wetted grungy Nicki with 256:1 ONR+Wax using a $14
one gallon pump sprayer, wetted each microfiber with it to wipe down,
and dried with different drying towels (experimenting on those still).
The luscious thick wet wax is back. Remember Warm Leatherette?
And this is all very inexpensive. I'm sending that unnecessary grit
guard back.
So, what's the conclusion? First of all, we're really not equipped to
fully understand the materials and their properties. We all want the
same thing, and we can't quite get there. We're easily sold on costly
detailing, and "magical" products. I personally feel that there's a bit of
abuse here. Like when people are frightened into shelling out $5k to
have their precious car wrapped in plastic. WTF for? So they get to
baby the wrap, you know, special cleaning procedures, just so the
paint underneath is virgin, mummified for when? For the day they
remove the (by now) scratched plastic? Waidda minute ...
Anyway, glad to see people here trading ideas on how to simplify,
spend less time and less money on keeping a Tesla gorgeous.
great because they reveal what's in each product. I respect that old
school professional approach, rather than the mystery voodoo of the
younger companies that all have "the best" secret formulas.
We are babes in the woods, and we're getting jacked around by an
industry that's been feeding off car fans for half a century, like vampires.
What struck me is how totally different the compositions are, even
within e.g. one 39000 line of end-user waxes. Their cleaner wax has
a lot of water ;-) abrasive ceramics, silicones and siloxanes. It's meant
to do a light abrasive polishing for swirls etc, and leave a synthetic wax.
They also make just the abrasive portion as a 103, 203 and 303 type
for more professional use (103 is finest), and a light consumer version.
They offer a QuickWax, a Synthetic Wax Protectant for longer lasting
bonding to the finish, like 6+ months, and my favorite Perfect it Show
Car Paste Wax. But wait, they also offer a Liquid Perfect it Show Car
Wax. And, guess what, it's a totally different composition. It's going
to create a polymer coat that will last longer. But only their paste wax
contains the carnauba. And THAT's what gives that luscious thick
shine, though it won't hold up to washings like their liquid formula.
But note that it's the one they recommend as the final waxing after
full polishing in their more professional use table. My head is spinning,
and that's just dealing with end-user "wax" offerings, 3M alone makes
hundreds of products to make our cars shiny.
Now we do have one advantage: ONR as a superior washing medium
that pulls dirt off very well and doesn't tear down the wax layer as much
as old style detergents. So whichever coating/wax we pick can last longer.
E.g. I just pre-wetted grungy Nicki with 256:1 ONR+Wax using a $14
one gallon pump sprayer, wetted each microfiber with it to wipe down,
and dried with different drying towels (experimenting on those still).
The luscious thick wet wax is back. Remember Warm Leatherette?
And this is all very inexpensive. I'm sending that unnecessary grit
guard back.
So, what's the conclusion? First of all, we're really not equipped to
fully understand the materials and their properties. We all want the
same thing, and we can't quite get there. We're easily sold on costly
detailing, and "magical" products. I personally feel that there's a bit of
abuse here. Like when people are frightened into shelling out $5k to
have their precious car wrapped in plastic. WTF for? So they get to
baby the wrap, you know, special cleaning procedures, just so the
paint underneath is virgin, mummified for when? For the day they
remove the (by now) scratched plastic? Waidda minute ...
Anyway, glad to see people here trading ideas on how to simplify,
spend less time and less money on keeping a Tesla gorgeous.
joebruin77
Active Member
I agree with your comments about ONR and protecting your paint with wax, but gotta disagree with you on this one about PPF. I realize PPF is not for everyone, but I don't think it accurate to criticize those of use who opted for PPF. I can only speak for myself. I was not "frightened into" PPF. I was, shall I say, "amazed" into PPF. What some may not realize about PPF is that it has self-healing properties. You can walk up to a car panel covered in PPF, key it on purpose, and then with the heat of the sun, the film will self heal and the keyed scratch will be completely gone.
Where I live, I have to keep my M3 parked outside year round. Plus I often have to park in crowded parking lots at stores or venues around town. Waxes and sealants do very little if anything to protect from other people and cars from hitting your car and damaging your paint. MY PPF comes with a 10-year warranty and, as long as I keep the car for 8+ years, I personally find value in having the PPF done.
BTW, I am a big fan of carnauba wax and the warm glow it gives paint. But one problem with carbauba wax is that it has a much lower melting point. If you are parked in the sun and the temperature on your paint gets above 180 degrees, your carnauba wax will melt away and leave your paint unprotected. Perhas the 3M wax you like has synthetic polymers in it too and that might continue to provide protection, but the carnauba wax is not effective in higher temp environments. Synthetic polymer sealants have much higher melting points, usually around 350 degrees. So in a hot environment, I think you are better off having a polymer sealant as your base protection, and then topping it with a carnauba wax for the extra glow and warmth only carnauba can deliver.
Here is a video I have posted in other discussions. Check out the 1:05 time mark. This is where the presenter uses a steel brush to purposely scratch his car's clearcoat, and then, with the help of the PPF's self-healing abilities, the scratches completely disappear.
Fernand
Active Member
@joebruin77 I don't argue with those benefits of the film.
Of course real world dings and bangs are far worse.
It's just too expensive and too precious for me, and I
see some people, who can barely afford it, cowed into
a full PPF + overpriced "ceramic coating" as "necessity".
That's not your case, of course.
As to waxes, pure carnauba is too fragile, it's seldom
used by itself these days, it melts at 82-86 °C
(180-187 °F) The compounded 3MTM Perfect-ItTM
Paste Wax PN 39526, 38526, 39526S, 33526
consists of:
In the can it melts at 95 deg C (203 deg F). I believe
that after it sets on the clearcoat it will not melt off
easily.
3M also makes a very long lasting all-synthetic one,
3MTM Synthetic Wax Protectant PN 39030, 39030S,
39037, 39056, that polymerizes on the clearcoat, but
I love the carnauba look, and with ONR+wax washes
it holds up way longer than when hit with detergents
weekly, as classically done in the past. So with ONR
its a bit of "have cake and eat it too"
Of course real world dings and bangs are far worse.
It's just too expensive and too precious for me, and I
see some people, who can barely afford it, cowed into
a full PPF + overpriced "ceramic coating" as "necessity".
That's not your case, of course.
As to waxes, pure carnauba is too fragile, it's seldom
used by itself these days, it melts at 82-86 °C
(180-187 °F) The compounded 3MTM Perfect-ItTM
Paste Wax PN 39526, 38526, 39526S, 33526
consists of:
In the can it melts at 95 deg C (203 deg F). I believe
that after it sets on the clearcoat it will not melt off
easily.
3M also makes a very long lasting all-synthetic one,
3MTM Synthetic Wax Protectant PN 39030, 39030S,
39037, 39056, that polymerizes on the clearcoat, but
I love the carnauba look, and with ONR+wax washes
it holds up way longer than when hit with detergents
weekly, as classically done in the past. So with ONR
its a bit of "have cake and eat it too"
Last edited:
joebruin77
Active Member
@joebruin77 I don't argue with those benefits of the film.
It's just too expensive and too precious for me, and I
see some people, who can barely afford it, cowed into
a full PPF + overpriced "ceramic coating" as "necessity".
That's not your case, of course.
As to waxes, pure carnauba is too fragile, it's seldom
used by itself these days, it melts at 82-86 °C
(180-187 °F) The compounded 3MTM Perfect-ItTM
Paste Wax PN 39526, 38526, 39526S, 33526
consists of:
View attachment 436673
In the can it melts at 95 deg C (203 deg F). I believe
that after it sets on the clearcoat it will not melt off
easily.
3M also makes a very long lasting all-synthetic one,
3MTM Synthetic Wax Protectant PN 39030, 39030S,
39037, 39056, that polymerizes on the clearcoat, but
I love the carnauba look, and with ONR+wax washes
it holds up way longer than when hit with detergents
weekly, as classically done in the past. So with ONR
its a bit of "have cake and eat it too"
I totally agree with you that PPF and ceramic are not necessities. After all, cars have been around a lot longer than PPF and ceramic coatings. Interesting to see the contents of the 3M wax - contains lots of "Trade Secrets". Thank you for sharing.
Fernand
Active Member
It's just the exact proportions they withhold, they give
a % range. But they have to disclose actual ingredients.
Thanks (in this case) to FDA, EPA and other consumer
protection regulations.
In the $130B/yr "supplements" market they get around full
disclosure by listing some standard compounds but then
e.g. 100mg of "special herbal blend". I kind of like knowing
what I'm ingesting or rubbing up against
. Hey, I lovethe smells: I could eat carnauba and wash it down with ONR.
joebruin77
Active Member
I know EXACTLY what you mean. Have you tried Meguiar's D156 Synthetic Spray Wax or Meguiar's D115 Express Wash and Wax? Both of these products have addictive smells. Whoever is in charge of smells at Meguiars is a genius!
Fernand
Active Member
Reading all this has me worried. The idea of being
able to just pass through a car wash, or rinse the car
down, with no drying, and that's IT!? That's viciously
desirable.
So, who here has a method that can do that?
I walked out to find Nicki with the usual overnight
layer of organic crap from the trees and road. I live in
what might fool some as "forest", although 10 minutes
from downtown urban, and 15 from suit and tie SF.
There's a pair of sequoias that are at least 100 ft tall
right across the road from where Nicki berths. And it
seems pointless at times to fight the downward spiral
whereby cars gradually blend in with the surrounding
dust and dirt. Aaaagh! See? It's creeping up on me.
One voice says "take a grinder to it, clay it again, coat
it with petrochemical repellents" and another says
"F*** it".
It's the drying that's a bitch. For all the beading that's
achieved, them beads 'vaporate, leaving mini-craters
on the surface. Maybe we need Teflon+ so that even
the slightest departure from horizontal and the beads
never rest, rolling off and gone?
The automotive products industry may have something
like that in a secret vault in Area 51, but they sure are
not parading it out here in the real world, for obvious
monetary reasons. Everybody here, I bet, has that big
shelf in the garage that's full of "product".
So who comes closest to "just hose it off and walk away"?
able to just pass through a car wash, or rinse the car
down, with no drying, and that's IT!? That's viciously
desirable.
So, who here has a method that can do that?
I walked out to find Nicki with the usual overnight
layer of organic crap from the trees and road. I live in
what might fool some as "forest", although 10 minutes
from downtown urban, and 15 from suit and tie SF.
There's a pair of sequoias that are at least 100 ft tall
right across the road from where Nicki berths. And it
seems pointless at times to fight the downward spiral
whereby cars gradually blend in with the surrounding
dust and dirt. Aaaagh! See? It's creeping up on me.
One voice says "take a grinder to it, clay it again, coat
it with petrochemical repellents" and another says
"F*** it".
It's the drying that's a bitch. For all the beading that's
achieved, them beads 'vaporate, leaving mini-craters
on the surface. Maybe we need Teflon+ so that even
the slightest departure from horizontal and the beads
never rest, rolling off and gone?
The automotive products industry may have something
like that in a secret vault in Area 51, but they sure are
not parading it out here in the real world, for obvious
monetary reasons. Everybody here, I bet, has that big
shelf in the garage that's full of "product".
So who comes closest to "just hose it off and walk away"?
joebruin77
Active Member
Perhaps something like this?
https://www.costco.com/Unger-Professional-Rinse'n'Go-Spotless-Car-Wash-System.product.100471577.html
Fernand
Active Member
I dunno. The use of distilled water does help when using ONR,
but so far I can't get it to dry spotless unless I dry it down to just
slightly moist with a towel. Assuming that ONR is carrying some
dirt, as per its miraculous mission in life, if there's any of that
solution remaining on the car, it's no longer just distilled water,
so evaporating the water will predictably leave some contaminants.
But that's with No-Rinse ONR. If using a water-only rinse, who knows?
This contraption probably helps, but I somehow doubt it's 100%.
Anybody try something like it? How about the more professional
water purifiers? Do they let you set a car aside all beading with
(clean) water in the sun and not touch it with a drying towel?
but so far I can't get it to dry spotless unless I dry it down to just
slightly moist with a towel. Assuming that ONR is carrying some
dirt, as per its miraculous mission in life, if there's any of that
solution remaining on the car, it's no longer just distilled water,
so evaporating the water will predictably leave some contaminants.
But that's with No-Rinse ONR. If using a water-only rinse, who knows?
This contraption probably helps, but I somehow doubt it's 100%.
Anybody try something like it? How about the more professional
water purifiers? Do they let you set a car aside all beading with
(clean) water in the sun and not touch it with a drying towel?
I know EXACTLY what you mean. Have you tried Meguiar's D156 Synthetic Spray Wax or Meguiar's D115 Express Wash and Wax? Both of these products have addictive smells. Whoever is in charge of smells at Meguiars is a genius!
Lol I just used some meguiars wash and wax spray last night and was thinking I was getting intoxicated from the sweet smell.
Could use some of that inside the cabin but I used 303 in there and that doesn’t leave much of any smell.
Do you have a link to your review? I've been thinking about trying it and am curious what you think. Thanks.
joebruin77
Active Member
I'm not sure how to post a link. I'll try below, but if that doesn't work just search "ceramic detail spray" and it should come up. Hope that helps.
Technician's Choice Ceramic Detail Spray: It's like a ceramic Bead Maker
joebruin77
Active Member
I find the Optimum no rinse can be used on windows and glass and it works well. It can pretty much be used on any exterior surface.
It can be used on anything exterior and most of the interior
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