Our thoughts on FSD Beta now detecting Autopilot cheat devices | TMC Podcast Clip

FSD Beta V10.69.3.1 can sense the use of defeat devices that some owners were employing in order to avoid having to keep their hands on the steering wheel. We ask how it is doing this.

This is a clip from Tesla Motors Club Podcast #27. The full podcast video is available here: https://youtu.be/LtDViqsiAMc

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Na, there's more to it now. There's an alert specifically telling you to remove the defeat device from your wheel.

Right, but that won’t go off unless you fail the criteria. Which are crude.

Of course, most people with a defeat unbelievably don’t touch the wheel. Mindboggling.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I keep one hand on the steering yoke, left side, and still get non-stop nags which require me to put even more force onto the left side of the yoke to satisfy them. I tried to take a video of it by putting a phone onto my chest, but that yielded into a no-warning strike for me LOL. I have video proof if you haven't seen it in the other thread.

I’ve seen it. Of course you have to apply counter torque. Relatively easy to verify and presumably provides info about Tesla’s method.

With enough experiments easy enough to figure out probably.

 

[Ramphex]

I’ve seen it. Of course you have to apply counter torque. Relatively easy to verify and presumably provides info about Tesla’s method.

With enough experiments easy enough to figure out probably.

What do you mean? I have to torque it with both hands in both directions? Because if I rest both hands on the yoke, that SHOULD balance out the amount of torque that's applied by either hand therefore yielding in computer thinking there are no hands on the yoke.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What do you mean? I have to torque it with both hands in both directions?

Just have to alternate. Relatively easy to experiment and determine.

 

[Ramphex]

Just have to alternate. Relatively easy to experiment and determine.

Sounds like a lot of work, easier to just.... drive manually.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Sounds like a lot of work, easier to just.... drive manually.

Or just drive normally and it just works for the most part.

 

[Ramphex]

Or just drive normally and it just works for the most part.

You and I either have different cars or different versions of FSDb. Someone did speculate that it works better in California for whatever reason.

 

[Supcom]

Looks like the cheat detector needs a little work. Tagging people as dead weight was intended for employee cars, not customers. I sense a strike reset coming in the next release.

 

[Ramphex]

Looks like the cheat detector needs a little work. Tagging people as dead weight was intended for employee cars, not customers. I sense a strike reset coming in the next release.

Strikes should reset every release. That system is not perfect, but nor is FSDb.

 

[Supcom]

Strikes should reset every release. That system is not perfect, but nor is FSDb.

I don't know why the persist with the wheel tug anyway. They should be able to do the job with eye/head monitoring for cars with cameras.

 

[Ramphex]

I don't know why the persist with the wheel tug anyway. They should be able to do the job with eye/head monitoring for cars with cameras.

You'd imagine. They put more work into making the software watch you watching it, than into the software driving the car.

 

[Supcom]

You'd imagine. They put more work into making the software watch you watching it, than into the software driving the car.

And, as soon as the perfect the defeat detector, someone will develop a new cheat device that defeats the defeat detector.

 

[Ramphex]

And, as soon as the perfect the defeat detector, someone will develop a new cheat device that defeats the defeat detector.

It's a waste of time. Why are they so concerned with defeating the cheat devices, instead of making it so the steering wheel/yoke cheat devices are no longer needed.... I mean wasn't that the whole point of the cabin camera integration?!?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

mean wasn't that the whole point of the cabin camera integration?!?

No that was not the purpose of the camera.

You and I either have different cars or different versions of FSDb. Someone did speculate that it works better in California for whatever reason.

We do have different cars; you have a yoke amongst other differences.

All I am saying is wiggling the wheel will clear these issues. If you just pull one direction it won’t work. It’s extremely crude; they are not even attempting to detect wheel weights. That’s the issue as far as I can tell.

Once they work on detecting wheel weights, this issue will go away and holding the steering wheel will work. But they are not doing that - they just look for one direction and call it a weight, probably. Totally and completely different than looking for a weight.

Presumably they have the capability but they are not even trying. Some day I guess!

 

[Ramphex]

No that was not the purpose of the camera.


We do have different cars; you have a yoke amongst other differences.

All I am saying is wiggling the wheel will clear these issues. If you just pull one direction it won’t work. It’s extremely crude; they are not even attempting to detect wheel weights. That’s the issue as far as I can tell.

Once they work on detecting wheel weights, this issue will go away and holding the steering wheel will work. But they are not doing that - they just look for one direction and call it a weight, probably. Totally and completely different than looking for a weight.

Presumably they have the capability but they are not even trying. Some day I guess!

What was the purpose of the cabin camera then? And it takes my attention away from the road to keep constantly checking the dash to see when I need to beat off my yoke in multiple directions to satisfy the nags

 

[Supcom]

What was the purpose of the cabin camera then? And it takes my attention away from the road to keep constantly checking the dash to see when I need to beat off my yoke in multiple directions to satisfy the nags

The cabin camera was originally intended for robotaxi passenger monitoring. If you installed a camera for driver attention monitoring, you'd put it in front of the driver, not under the mirror.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don't know why the persist with the wheel tug anyway. They should be able to do the job with eye/head monitoring for cars with cameras.

I agree, as long as they can detect arm position, to make sure hands are on the wheel. Challenging but I think just possible. Have to re-examine the images of what the camera can see exactly.

 

[EVNow]

The cabin camera was originally intended for robotaxi passenger monitoring. If you installed a camera for driver attention monitoring, you'd put it in front of the driver, not under the mirror.

May be they should offer an upgrade to the steering wheel with capacitive touch sensors. Wonder how much that will cost ...

No, I don't mean a free upgrade.

 

[Ramphex]

May be they should offer an upgrade to the steering wheel with capacitive touch sensors. Wonder how much that will cost ...

No, I don't mean a free upgrade.

$2,000 and two weeks

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I agree, as long as they can detect arm position, to make sure hands are on the wheel. Challenging but I think just possible. Have to re-examine the images of what the camera can see exactly.

I checked this. My human brain can see when a human has hands on steering wheel with high confidence, without seeing the wheel or the hands, so I think the cabin camera would be fine for determining hands on steering wheel with high likelihood. Just have to have a super NN to do it. (I don’t know whether such good NNs exist.)

Tesla hacker unveils what the Model 3/Y cabin camera can see (video clips) - Tesla Oracle

Tesla Model 3 and Model Y come with an integrated passenger facing cabin camera, Tesla hacker green unlocks the recorded clips (videos, details).

www.teslaoracle.com

Anyway Tesla should do this. Force both hands on wheel most of the time. No torque sensor. Go for it.

Would work fine. The way you know if it can be done is to have a human look at camera output and determine when the driver has hands on wheel and is not distracted. If that is possible the car can do it. At some point (may require step change advances in AI or solving AGI).