Our thoughts on FSD Beta now detecting Autopilot cheat devices | TMC Podcast Clip

FSD Beta V10.69.3.1 can sense the use of defeat devices that some owners were employing in order to avoid having to keep their hands on the steering wheel. We ask how it is doing this.

This is a clip from Tesla Motors Club Podcast #27. The full podcast video is available here: https://youtu.be/LtDViqsiAMc

 

[Ramphex]

I checked this. My human brain can see when a human has hands on steering wheel with high confidence, without seeing the wheel or the hands, so I think the cabin camera would be fine for determining hands on steering wheel with high likelihood. Just have to have a super NN to do it. (I don’t know whether such good NNs exist.)

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Tesla Model 3 and Model Y come with an integrated passenger facing cabin camera, Tesla hacker green unlocks the recorded clips (videos, details).

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Anyway Tesla should do this. Force both hands on wheel most of the time. No torque sensor. Go for it.

Would work fine. The way you know if it can be done is to have a human look at camera output and determine when the driver has hands on wheel and is not distracted. If that is possible the car can do it. At some point (may require step change advances in AI or solving AGI).

You know you can view your own cabin camera, right?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You know you can view your own cabin camera, right?

But I would have to be in my car for that if I wanted to see what I wanted, right? Anyway this seemed easier.

Also how would I do this (Dog Mode doesn’t work of course unless I lift my butt, then sit back down)? Anyway I did this (because I was recently in the car) and it is of course easy to tell when I have hands on the wheel. Eyes on the road is even easier.

 

[Ramphex]

But I would have to be in my car for that if I wanted to see what I wanted, right? Anyway this seemed easier.

Also how would I do this (Dog Mode doesn’t work of course unless I lift my butt, then sit back down)? Anyway I did this (because I was recently in the car) and it is of course easy to tell when I have hands on the wheel. Eyes on the road is even easier.

I can view my cabin camera without dog mode on, just sentry.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I can view my cabin camera without dog mode on, just sentry.

Right, but would need to engage it with me in the car which would be tricky, though possible. And would not want to accidentally set off alarm unless loud audio was disabled.

Have to view the camera with a person present. Seeing the camera FOV is not sufficient.

 

[Ramphex]

Right, but would need to engage it with me in the car which would be tricky, though possible. And would not want to accidentally set off alarm unless loud audio was disabled.

Do it, post it here, don’t blur out your face

 

[emmz0r]

Why don't they make capacative sensors in the steering wheel after all these years?

 

[Raurele]

May be they should offer an upgrade to the steering wheel with capacitive touch sensors. Wonder how much that will cost ...

No, I don't mean a free upgrade.

HELL no. Why would you pay to have to have your hand on it more?

 

[EVNow]

HELL no. Why would you pay to have to have your hand on it more?

Because I anyway keep my hands on the wheel and still have to deal with the nags.

Anyway, it would be optional and worth more to me than fancy wheels

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Because I anyway keep my hands on the wheel and still have to deal with the nags.

Anyway, it would be optional and worth more to me than fancy wheels

They don’t need it. If you look at what the camera can see, you can see it is quite easy to figure out whether the driver has one or both hands on the wheel. Based on arm position.

All the hardware is built-in!

 

[Apollo17]

I recently got FSD beta on the recent update. I was using it today and my steering wheel gave me a warning that I was using an autopilot antidefeat device. I just recently got this car and have never owned or plan on using one of these devices. I think maybe its too sensitive because if it does it 3-4 more additional times I get kicked out of FSD, which is not fair since I never used one of the devices to begin with. That would be wrong because they are kicking me out of something for which I paid extra for.

I will add that I use a combination of applying wheel torque and just pressing the autopilot stock whenever I get the flashing blue lights to keep my hands on the steering wheel. When the message popped up there were no flashing blue lights or warning to put my hands on steering wheel.

Anyone else have this happen?

Yes, this same "instant disqualification" happened to me yesterday. We just bought our Model Y, and I am learning the nuances of AutoPilot. So here is how it happened to me:

I had been driving on Autopilot for almost two hours on a largely empty 4-lane highway, torquing the wheel when either the initial lower-screen message or later upper-screen blue flash presented themselves. No issues, not even phantom braking. There was a feature on a mountain to the left of our car that I wanted to look at more closely. I had the sunshade over the top of the driver side window. To see the mountain feature, I had to crane my neck and bend my head lower. And of course, I was looking away from the forward view. I had looked to the left in this manner maybe two or three times, briefly -- no more than a few seconds at a time. Then I heard the harsh beeps. Turning my focus back to the screen, I briefly saw the terse comment in red at the bottom of the screen, indicating I was guilty - GUILTY, I SAY! - of using a "defeating device". I was banned from using AutoSteer for the remainder of the trip; as I was fairly close to my destination, I did not opt to pull off and restart the drive.

Now -- I may have missed the cutoff of a blue flash warning. I don't believe so. I think the "defeating device" notification came without any warning at all. And it does seem that the car knew I looked away from the forward view. It was the first and only time I really did that during the whole trip. So there might be something to other posters here who say the latest software may be moving toward more perfect recognition of human posture and movement to determine whether or not a driver is really paying attention.

Just my experience, anyway.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If it says you are using a defeat device when you are not, that is of course a Tesla issue, regardless of whether you should have received a strike.

Their weird primitive defeat device detection seems to be pathetic. Surprised, after years of effort.

 

[Raurele]

They don’t need it. If you look at what the camera can see, you can see it is quite easy to figure out whether the driver has one or both hands on the wheel. Based on arm position.

All the hardware is built-in!

Have you seen what your camera sees?

You can hold your phone above your cupholders, and it looks like you’re holding the wheel.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Have you seen what your camera sees?

You can hold your phone above your cupholders, and it looks like you’re holding the wheel.

Yes I have. I can tell in the camera if I am holding my phone above the cupholders. It’s totally different. Try it yourself!

 

[MTOman]

They don’t need it. If you look at what the camera can see, you can see it is quite easy to figure out whether the driver has one or both hands on the wheel. Based on arm position.

All the hardware is built-in!

Not built into my X, it's missing an interior cam.

 

[Raurele]

Yes I have. I can tell in the camera if I am holding my phone above the cupholders. It’s totally different. Try it yourself!

I did. That’s why I said it

 

[starmap]

When you waste engineering resource on defeating what FSD is suppose to be in the first place (self driving), you don't get either.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I did. That’s why I said it

I’m not sure what to tell you. If you look ahead vs. look at your phone held over the cupholders, it looks totally different. Especially the head. Super easy to tell.

And it is also pretty easy to tell when hands are in the lap vs. the vicinity of the wheel (from the arm position).

I agree holding a phone over the cupholders vs. holding the wheel is hard to tell. But not sure how that is relevant. Because as soon as you look at the phone it is obvious. And I don’t think many people love to just hold their phone awkwardly without looking at it, or randomly hold their arms out like a zombie.

So yes, there are arm positions that are indistinguishable from holding the wheel, but we don’t care about them much. People who don’t hold the wheel have hands in lap (identified by arms), or are using the phone or screen (identified by gaze).

All seems very easy for a human to identify.

 

[Supcom]

And it is also pretty easy to tell when hands are in the lap vs. the vicinity of the wheel (from the arm position).

With my seat/wheel position, the difference between my hands resting on my knees and hanging on the lower part of the steering wheel is a matter of bending the wrists. I see no way to discern the difference without a view of the hands.

Have you also considered that video processing of arm positions must include all types of clothing? This means that everything from bare arms to winter parkas, camo jackets, sequined clothing, ponchos, etc must all be able to discern the arm position. I think this would be harder than you make it out to be. Especially for those who tend to keep their hands on the lower part of the wheel.

And, what about the one armed, or one handed Tesla owner? The processing must allow for only one hand on the wheel.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think this would be harder than you make it out to be.

I’m just talking for a human. I don’t think these variables make it much more difficult. Are there corner cases? Probably!

I don’t care about neural nets.

The processing must allow for only one hand on the wheel.

Yeah that’s fine. A non-issue.

With my seat/wheel position, the difference between my hands resting on my knees and hanging on the lower part of the steering wheel is a matter of bending the wrists. I see no way to discern the difference without a view of the hands.

I’d be ok forcing people who hold the wheel in this non-optimal way (it is basically impossible to steer or take evasive action) to have torque requirements.

 

[Supcom]

Are there corner cases? Probably!

Oh, those pesky corner cases. Always mucking things up.