out of spec tire size and traction control

[Atraf]

AEB disabled is a firmware glitch happening to people with factory size tires these days.

I did a lot of testing recently on my 265/35/19's and determined the wheel setting has 0 impact on the speedometer, switching between 18" Aero and ZeroG wheels and monitoring with a 10Hz GPS it showed the same error at the same speeds up to 85mph (max it would let me set cruise control to in autopilot). ZeroG also showed the same range calculations as the 20" Uberturbines and original performance wheels.

This is pretty much perfectly inline with my experience, the AEB disabled looks to be triggered by tire switch, not by which tires I switched to.
And thankfully it self-resolves after couple of days / ~200 miles.

Tonight or tomorrow morning I'll do my ~112 mile round trip again, I'm expecting to not get any AEB disabled message.

 

[Atraf]

Just got back from the drive, started at 68% outside temp = 73f, AC set to 73f fan speed 5/10, 56 miles 1hr 1min, 68%-44%=28%, 56miles/28%=2miles per 1% so car's real total range = 200 miles flat.

Then I drove back, during this drive temps dropped from 73f to 69f, I had AC OFF and fan OFF, same 56miles, same 1hr 1min, went from 44% to 26% = 18%, 56miles/18% = 3.11miles per 1% battery thus car's real life total range is 311miles

That compressor is a massive power hog

Mind you this is all doing basically 56mph for solid 1hr with zero wind
With my 235/40R19 OEM tires I was able to get the exact same range when going with traffic (~71mph).
When I'm driving that fast now my Wh/mi is north of 340, reducing my real life range to about 150miles with AC or 210miles without AC

Since I never use more than 60% battery in a single day (at least, so far in last 3 years), I rather optimize for traction/short stop distance than for max range
I would have loved to try the above with the OEM aero wheels, both with OEM tires and with same tires I have now but in 245/45R18
Heck, if someone else paid for it, I would have loved to also test the unplugged performance aero lip+spoiler (in all four wheel\tire configurations listed above)


P.S.
Yeah, zero issues with traction control throughout the whole week (~500 miles), safe to say its all working just fine

 

[tm1v2]

Just got back from the drive, started at 68% outside temp = 73f, AC set to 73f fan speed 5/10, 56 miles 1hr 1min, 68%-44%=28%, 56miles/28%=2miles per 1% so car's real total range = 200 miles flat.

View attachment 834511

Then I drove back, during this drive temps dropped from 73f to 69f, I had AC OFF and fan OFF, same 56miles, same 1hr 1min, went from 44% to 26% = 18%, 56miles/18% = 3.11miles per 1% battery thus car's real life total range is 311miles

That compressor is a massive power hog

View attachment 834512

Mind you this is all doing basically 56mph for solid 1hr with zero wind
With my 235/40R19 OEM tires I was able to get the exact same range when going with traffic (~71mph).
When I'm driving that fast now my Wh/mi is north of 340, reducing my real life range to about 150miles with AC or 210miles without AC

Since I never use more than 60% battery in a single day (at least, so far in last 3 years), I rather optimize for traction/short stop distance than for max range
I would have loved to try the above with the OEM aero wheels, both with OEM tires and with same tires I have now but in 245/45R18
Heck, if someone else paid for it, I would have loved to also test the unplugged performance aero lip+spoiler (in all four wheel\tire configurations listed above)


P.S.
Yeah, zero issues with traction control throughout the whole week (~500 miles), safe to say its all working just fine

@Atraf I have to say, that's worse efficiency than I would've expected from those tires on a Model 3. Remind me, when was your Model 3 built? What's its EPA rated efficiency and range? Does it have the heat pump? (I wouldn't expect the heat pump to matter in 73f outside air, but figure I should ask.)

On the rare occasions I've had long, flat highway drives lately I've met my M3P's EPA rated efficiency - for 315mi rates range - while cruising at 70-73mph, with climate control on full auto (except seat heaters off), usually set in the 68-70f range. This is with 300TW "max performance" summer tires, size 245/45R18.

I'm about to have more regular opportunity (and need) for longer drives again, I'll start tracking hard numbers soon.

 

[Atraf]

@Atraf I have to say, that's worse efficiency than I would've expected from those tires on a Model 3. Remind me, when was your Model 3 built? What's its EPA rated efficiency and range? Does it have the heat pump? (I wouldn't expect the heat pump to matter in 73f outside air, but figure I should ask.)

On the rare occasions I've had long, flat highway drives lately I've met my M3P's EPA rated efficiency - for 315mi rates range - while cruising at 70-73mph, with climate control on full auto (except seat heaters off), usually set in the 68-70f range. This is with 300TW "max performance" summer tires, size 245/45R18.

I'm about to have more regular opportunity (and need) for longer drives again, I'll start tracking hard numbers soon.

I always felt that my Model 3's range didn't live up to my expectations.
I used to get the exact same efficiency/range while going "with traffic"/"at a good pace" (so, 'fast'), now to get that range I have to basically stay under 60mph which is not practical, so my real / normal range has taken a hit, which is unfortunate but again, since I use my car 99% of the time as daily commuter, its fine, I rather have shorter break distance / improved traction than some extra range (I also charge at home, 100% of the time).

To your question, while my car's sticker says 2020, I got mine in Oct 2019, it doesn't heave:
Heat pump
Octovalve
double-panned glass
and tons of other nice things that modern 3/Y has (definitely no mega casting front or back)

Less then a month ago I took my car in for service, I had my AC's compressor looked at as well as my suspension, everything was found to be perfectly normal. After I had my current set of tires mounted I also had my car aligned. The tires I took out were all evenly worn out (each tire, left center and right had same value, for both front and rear).

AC always eats my range, if you ever get a chance to do a 20+ mile round trip, do as I did, note the battery % each time you get into the car (as in, don't count whatever energy is wasted while car is parked) and note the % each time you leave the car, note down the miles drove in each leg and how much time it took, that should get you actual battery percent used per mile (and thus, total expected range at that rate) as well as actual length it took as to build average speed.
Assuming that the 19" sport wheels (V1, not V2) are not actually god awful for aerodynamic purposes ... I'm just going to assume its a combination of missing out on lots of internal improvements + the wheels + the tires + the AC compressor just all stacking up

 

[Atraf]

My only other theory regarding the not so great range is battery desegregation, but I don't know enough about the subject to know if that's the case (nor do I have any idea how to get data from my batteries) but basically: during the first 6,000 miles of the car I only did supercharging, mostly V2 but some (20% of time?) V3
Then in the following 20k miles I only did at home 8kwh charging using the mobile charger

Maybe those first chargers cost me some range?
This probably warrants a thread of its own but, does anyone here have happen to have done either only supercharging or otherwise tons of supercharging and have seen some range loss?

 

[Atraf]

Alright, another update, went for the same drive again, this time driving with traffic rather than driving as slow as possible, here are the results:

Started first leg at 89%, finished at 62%, spent 27% driving 56miles over course of 53min with average speed of 63mph with AC on set to 70f with speed 5/10.
56/27*100= real life total car range of 207.4 miles

Started the way back with 62%, finished with 36%, spent 26% driving 62 miles over course of 55min at average speed of 67mph with both AC and vent OFF (it was 6 miles longer as there was some construction on 405 and traffic was routed to 22 highway)
62/26*100 = real life total car range of 238.46 miles

On my car every 1 hour of AC with fan on speed 5 costs about 31 miles of range

As for the range, battery capacity divided by Wh/mi = range, right? such that:
75,000(Wh) / 250(Wh/mi) = 300 miles range
In the same way that:
75,000(Wh) / 307(Wh/mi) = 244 miles <-- expected, reality --> 207.4 miles
75,000(Wh) / 283(Wh/mi)= 265 miles <-- expected, reality --> 238.46 miles

Power consumption ("Avg. Energy") readings must be off and my real Wh/mi should be:
75,000(Wh) / 361.6(Wh/mi) = 207.4 miles of range
75,000(Wh) / 314.5(Wh/mi) = 238.46 miles of range

However if the power consumption readings are correct, then my battery is has lost capacity and is now:
63,671.8(Wh) / 307(Wh/mi) = 207.4 miles of range - equivalent of 15% battery capacity loss (85% battery health)
67,484.18(Wh) / 283(Wh/mi) = 238.46 miles of range - equivalent of 10% battery capacity loss (90% battery health)
Tesla's battery warranty is

• Model 3 with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes
first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period

(Source: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Model_3_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_NA_en.pdf)

From what I am able to read online the biggest drop in retention is at the beginning and then it slows down as time passes, so first 25k miles will degrade more than the second 25k miles etc
It will take me a little over four years to reach the 120k miles point, at which point my car will be just about 7 years old
I really wonder if the exclusive supercharge use for first 4k miles accelerate this or if this is just 'normal'

I'll do the same above test a year from now (in ~25k miles) as well as two years from now (in ~50k miles) or next time I am replacing my tires (whichever comes later), would be interesting to see if my car maintains around same range as it has today (*assuming I don't just outright replace it with a 500 miles Cybertruck haha)

Would love some feedback on above logic/conclusion/findings

 

[Perscitus]

Above sounds reasonable (at least as reasonable as all the other speculation about estimated vs perceived range, battery degredation, BMS calibration, etc)

Two ideas:

-Have you tried any of the hardware/software solutions that will read your starting/current battery capacity, and charging stats for L3 vs L2? Might give you a few more data points.

-Have you tried one or more of the endless BMS recalibration schemes?

For example: cycle/deplete your battery down to at/or below 10% SoC, let it sit like that unplugged and deep sleeping for a few hours, ideally overnight.

Proceed to L2 or L3 charge up to 80-90% and again let it sit there unplugged deep sleeping overnight.

Go for a drive and wear off at least 25, but ideally ~50% of charge, park at say 40-50% SoC and again let it deep sleep unplugged for a few hours.

Next, go for another drive and deplete the SoC further back down to ~10% or so, then slow (L1 or slower L2) charge up to 90%.

Inspect your estimated range, rinse and repeat as needed.

 

[Atraf]

Above sounds reasonable (at least as reasonable as all the other speculation about estimated vs perceived range, battery degredation, BMS calibration, etc)

Two ideas:

-Have you tried any of the hardware/software solutions that will read your starting/current battery capacity, and charging stats for L3 vs L2? Might give you a few more data points.

-Have you tried one or more of the endless BMS recalibration schemes?

For example: cycle/deplete your battery down to at/or below 10% SoC, let it sit like that unplugged and deep sleeping for a few hours, ideally overnight.

Proceed to L2 or L3 charge up to 80-90% and again let it sit there unplugged deep sleeping overnight.

Go for a drive and wear off at least 25, but ideally ~50% of charge, park at say 40-50% SoC and again let it deep sleep unplugged for a few hours.

Next, go for another drive and deplete the SoC further back down to ~10% or so, then slow (L1 or slower L2) charge up to 90%.

Inspect your estimated range, rinse and repeat as needed.

I haven't tried re-calibrating like that, I generally don't look at the estimated remaining miles, instead I simply look at battery SoC when starting and when finishing and calculate the difference, my assumption was that while the car might not really know how many miles I can get out of the current SoC - that it should be pretty good at telling what the SoC is actually at.

The short version of the above is:
Bring to 10% or below SoC, let it sit overnight in deep sleep (summon disabled, sentry disabled from this point onward)
L2/3 charge to 90% SoC, let it sleep overnight again.
Consume 50% of SoC (so from 90% or whatever it woke up on, to ~45%), let is sleep overnight
Bring down to 10% and then use mobile charger to overnight charge it at ~8kWh up to 90%
Then repeat the above 112 mile round trip at dead of night, probably going with regular driving speed, and check how much % that consumed.
its like: 10% and hold, 90% and hold, 50% and hold, 10% and hold > charge to full.

My scheduled wont let me follow that to the letter but I could probably swing this:
stop charging at home at around Thursday, by Friday night Bring to 10%, let it sit overnight, then at home charge to 90% in the morning, let it sit overnight and not use car during Sat, on sun do my 112mile round trip (should be about 53% use), let it sit overnight, then on Monday do my daily and come back home with hopefully more than 1%, finally plugging it in and doing home slow charge overnight

Is there any benefit of getting battery to below 1% and then charging at home at low settings (ex, 4kWh instead of 8kWh or .. as slow as possible that it will take the entire fri-night>Mon-morning to charge fully)?

 

[Perscitus]

Sounds good. I have ever only used % SoC as my guide as well and can confirm the BMS' fuzzy logic guesstimate can and will throw off relative % just as much as the estimated range at any SoC.

Sure, give that a shot or try a few discharge cycles down to below 10%, up to 90%, while ideally letting the car deep sleep at various SoCs along the way a few times. The trick is to let the BMS see the battery a number of times at 10%, 25%, 50%, 80% and if you want 100%.

No need and no benefit from dropping down to 0/1% SoC or L1 trickle charging up to 80-90% from that low either.

 

[pdx_m3s]

Same size tire on my 19” Sport wheels, but with the PureContact LS “eco” tire. Looks and drives great.

 

[Atraf]

Sounds good. I have ever only used % SoC as my guide as well and can confirm the BMS' fuzzy logic guesstimate can and will throw off relative % just as much as the estimated range at any SoC.

Sure, give that a shot or try a few discharge cycles down to below 10%, up to 90%, while ideally letting the car deep sleep at various SoCs along the way a few times. The trick is to let the BMS see the battery a number of times at 10%, 25%, 50%, 80% and if you want 100%.

No need and no benefit from dropping down to 0/1% SoC or L1 trickle charging up to 80-90% from that low either.

Hey so you might actually be onto something, I disabled the car's listening for Summon commands, also disabled Sentry and pretty much everything else (overheat protection) except mobile device connection, I then left it unplugged at 50% overnight

Next day the car was so dead asleep that it didn't open the charging port's door when I pressed on the mobile charger's button, when I finally got back into the car it had 51%

If I can repeat this 10 times I'll pretty much gain everything I "lost"

My schedule is not super predictable and occasionally I find myself blindsided with needing to do an extra 80-100 miles/day thus I don't get too many opportunities to just leave the car on low % unplugged overnight, but I'll make sure to use the opportunities I do get and see if I can get any more of my battery back that way.

(btw not disabling summon on a car that has summon enabled, prevents the car from getting into deep sleep state.)

Same size tire on my 19” Sport wheels, but with the PureContact LS “eco” tire. Looks and drives great.

View attachment 837780

Probably first time I see someone that removed the black cover and instead put a cup like that, totally changes the look of the wheel, huge like =)
Also, thanks for sharing!
Any word on your highway Wh/mi?

 

[pdx_m3s]

Probably first time I see someone that removed the black cover and instead put a cup like that, totally changes the look of the wheel, huge like =)
Also, thanks for sharing!
Any word on your highway Wh/mi?

Thanks, and I agree it looks better. It's hard to say on efficiency because I'm lowered (after that pic taken) and also have 20/25mm spacers. I also don't drive much on the freeway.

 

[Atraf]

Hey so @Perscitus your idea keeps working:
Last afternoon I left my car unplugged at 54% with sentry/overheat protection/summon all disabled.
This morning when I came to wake it up it again ignored the button on the charger until I toggled on a door.
I get inside and sure enough battery is now 57%

So far I gained 4% doing this, reducing my alleged battery degradation from 10% to 6%.

I'll keep doing it whenever an opportunity arises until it will stop working, my expectation is that leaving car overnight unplugged should result in either no change or actual loss of battery (like, at least 1%), not gain of battery haha

This trick should probably be a sticky post somewhere, thanks again!

 

[Perscitus]

Glad to hear, however I don't want to get your hopes up just yet. Remember to let the car deep sleep as various SoCs (>10%, 20%, 33%, circa 50%, 75/80%, above 90%, even at or near whatever it thinks is 100% if you are feeling adventerous one day). What will throw the BMS off the most is keeping the battery at/around one SoC too frequently, being plugged in at all possible times, with no deep sleep cycles, and with the same predictable driving patterns.

Try and mix in some 30+, or even better 60-100+ mile trips and flavors of L1/2/3 charging sessions in between the deep sleep at various SoCs to help things along.

Right now, as the BMS does its thing and the % SoC auto-magically increases overnight... it might actually be indicating a capacity loss vs gain (assuming the actual electro-chemical capacity and cell health remains fixed, but for x capacity the BMS thinks you are no longer at 54% but 57% of total). At least since the % is moving around, its likely indicating the BMS is calibrating and cell balancing.

 

[Atraf]

Glad to hear, however I don't want to get your hopes up just yet. Remember to let the car deep sleep as various SoCs (>10%, 20%, 33%, circa 50%, 75/80%, above 90%, even at or near whatever it thinks is 100% if you are feeling adventerous one day). What will throw the BMS off the most is keeping the battery at/around one SoC too frequently, being plugged in at all possible times, with no deep sleep cycles, and with the same predictable driving patterns.

Try and mix in some 30+, or even better 60-100+ mile trips and flavors of L1/2/3 charging sessions in between the deep sleep at various SoCs to help things along.

Right now, as the BMS does its thing and the % SoC auto-magically increases overnight... it might actually be indicating a capacity loss vs gain (assuming the actual electro-chemical capacity and cell health remains fixed, but for x capacity the BMS thinks you are no longer at 54% but 57% of total). At least since the % is moving around, its likely indicating the BMS is calibrating and cell balancing.

So essentially, I should be happy if I leave it on 50% and wake up on 40%, as in, 50% is the new 40% in which situation what would prior to this be 100% is only 80% meaning I have 20%+ extra, I totally looked at it the wrong way, the only accurate part of my take is that the calibration is indeed off

Will be interesting to see how much battery % it takes to do my regular straight line commute after calibration relaxes, should have another one within two weeks from now or so.

To be continue

 

[Atraf]

Update:
After many more sessions of good night sleep, I now have the same range as I did back when I was on the OEM 235/40R19 on my new 245/40R19 sticker tires.

So the gap of calibration for me was as big as one tire size change.

I did see both up and down (leave on x% come back on either less or more than x%)

The requirements:
1) Unplugged
2) AC OFF (no camp mode etc)
3) All doors shut (trunk/frunk/side doors), windows too
4) Summon disabled
5) Sentry disabled
6) Just let the car be for good few hours (~5+ seems to do the trick)

 

[betaflame]

AEB disabled is a firmware glitch happening to people with factory size tires these days.

I did a lot of testing recently on my 265/35/19's and determined the wheel setting has 0 impact on the speedometer, switching between 18" Aero and ZeroG wheels and monitoring with a 10Hz GPS it showed the same error at the same speeds up to 85mph (max it would let me set cruise control to in autopilot). ZeroG also showed the same range calculations as the 20" Uberturbines and original performance wheels.

I just ran a similar battery of tests and got the same result. No speedo change regardless of wheel size set.

 

[gearchruncher]

I just ran a similar battery of tests and got the same result. No speedo change regardless of wheel size set.

I had the same experience, but in a different way.
I was looking at my track mode datalogs, and having a weird realization that they showed the actual track as longer when I had smaller diameter tires installed, despite changing the wheel config correctly. It completely messed up my ability to compare laps until I manually re-computed the distances.

 

[Fpbenz]

Thanks, and I agree it looks better. It's hard to say on efficiency because I'm lowered (after that pic taken) and also have 20/25mm spacers. I also don't drive much on the freeway.

Considering switching my 235/40/19 to 245/40/19. Did you notice any improvements aesthetically?

 

[gearchruncher]

Considering switching my 235/40/19 to 245/40/19. Did you notice any improvements aesthetically?

You are not going to notice 5mm more tire without moving the wheel.
Please stop posting this. You've asked in 4 threads now, this thread is almost two months old.
Yes, wider tires will reduce range.
Yes, wider stance will reduce range.
No, not all 245 tires are wider than all 235 tires.

Go look at the spacer threads, that's what you want if all you care about is looks.