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Performance not performing

btc1k

Member
Jan 18, 2021
464
325
Bristol
Makes you wonder if you pre-heated the car and battery prior to setting off what the difference would be.

The big shift away from LR was that the brakes overheat easier, and when looking at business leases, you wouldn't be able to purchase the boost package, so you'd never be able to get close to the P in good conditions at standing.
Apparently you can purchase the boost if you don't have access to the upgrades section (on lease) - by submitting a service request and it is processed manually.

I think you'd have to be driving pretty mental, to overheat the brakes on public roads! - I like to drive quick but have only ever had brake fade on a Mk2 astra 🤣

I think the P brakes only have an extra inch of diameter, they are not cross drilled or vented? On the track certainly, but can't see it being a problem otherwise.
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,863
1,527
Norfolk
Recap for those new to thread - I bought a 2021 P off inventory. Fremont car. Noticed a real issue on some cold nights/morning (6-11c ambient), when state of charge was below 60%. Felt sluggish. Reported to tesla who told me it was "within spec". Ended up going back and forth and it being booked into an SC. Came back to me with latest software. It was slightly improved but issues remained. I rejected the car and it's gone, but now Tesla are chasing me for excess mileage as they claim I used it too much before rejection. Go figure.

Anyway, had a long chat with Tesla techie and his view was:

Issues with P at lower states of charge combined with cold ambient temps are well known and widely reported.
Solution is "not easy".
The P has a larger battery than the LR as the motors require a higher peak power.
However the P has different battery chemistry and higher peak power cannot be sustained at lower states of charge.
A lower state of charge with high power demand causes "voltage sag" which can damage battery, software intervenes to limit peak power.
Combine this with a low temperature and battery goes into a protection mode which is why acceleration is drastically reduced.
Addition of heatpump which scavenges battery heat worsens it even further.
P battery chemistry means it actually needs more heat compared to LR to be able to efficiently release the extra power required.
LR doesn't suffer from same issues because peak power demand not as high, and chemistry different - his words were "more even"
P is not really suited to northern climates.
Made in China has same battery as Fremont P's. Don't expect a quick fix.
Lots of orders for P's in UK this year with the BiK changes. Expects there to be a lot of problems come next winter.


I don't know how true any of that is, and am just repeating his thoughts. His recommendation was:

LR max power is 324kw versus P max power of 377kw. (-53kw)
LR battery more stable and actually outperforms P battery.
Accel boost gives 37kw approx. Taking LR to 361kw. Battery can handle it.
Best option is an LR with accel boost. The difference in max power is just 15kw which is not noticeable once moving.
Only difference between LR and P acceleration mapping is that P has a larger peak power from standstill, so you get more of a punch from a launch, but otherwise once moving, there is no discernible difference between LR and P.


So he said... get an LR with boost and you actually have a car which can perform as a P without the issues of limited acceleration at low SoC and low temps, or at least a much more usable car.

:oops:

Right now I'll go put my tin hat on for when all the P obsessionists turn up
I’m not one of them 😂 I do see your frustration entirely. Tesla don’t advertise that your model might only perform in the warmer half of the year. If they had, I doubt you would have bought it. I would have argued the case just as you rightly have. As for excess mileage, Tesla can whistle Dixie.
From my perspective, I know my LR will see off most things at traffic lights and even more when rolling. I know it will do over 140mph but I’ll never do it. As far as boy racers are concerned, they can get caught in the speed cameras and shorten the life of their drive shafts. I know I can see them off and I’m happy to choose not to.
 
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Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,263
2,260
Bath, UK
Recap for those new to thread - I bought a 2021 P off inventory. Fremont car. Noticed a real issue on some cold nights/morning (6-11c ambient), when state of charge was below 60%. Felt sluggish. Reported to tesla who told me it was "within spec". Ended up going back and forth and it being booked into an SC. Came back to me with latest software. It was slightly improved but issues remained. I rejected the car and it's gone, but now Tesla are chasing me for excess mileage as they claim I used it too much before rejection. Go figure.

Anyway, had a long chat with Tesla techie and his view was:

Issues with P at lower states of charge combined with cold ambient temps are well known and widely reported.
Solution is "not easy".
The P has a larger battery than the LR as the motors require a higher peak power.
However the P has different battery chemistry and higher peak power cannot be sustained at lower states of charge.
A lower state of charge with high power demand causes "voltage sag" which can damage battery, software intervenes to limit peak power.
Combine this with a low temperature and battery goes into a protection mode which is why acceleration is drastically reduced.
Addition of heatpump which scavenges battery heat worsens it even further.
P battery chemistry means it actually needs more heat compared to LR to be able to efficiently release the extra power required.
LR doesn't suffer from same issues because peak power demand not as high, and chemistry different - his words were "more even"
P is not really suited to northern climates.
Made in China has same battery as Fremont P's. Don't expect a quick fix.
Lots of orders for P's in UK this year with the BiK changes. Expects there to be a lot of problems come next winter.


I don't know how true any of that is, and am just repeating his thoughts. His recommendation was:

LR max power is 324kw versus P max power of 377kw. (-53kw)
LR battery more stable and actually outperforms P battery.
Accel boost gives 37kw approx. Taking LR to 361kw. Battery can handle it.
Best option is an LR with accel boost. The difference in max power is just 15kw which is not noticeable once moving.
Only difference between LR and P acceleration mapping is that P has a larger peak power from standstill, so you get more of a punch from a launch, but otherwise once moving, there is no discernible difference between LR and P.


So he said... get an LR with boost and you actually have a car which can perform as a P without the issues of limited acceleration at low SoC and low temps, or at least a much more usable car.

:oops:

Right now I'll go put my tin hat on for when all the P obsessionists turn up
Very informative, thanks.

Taken as a whole to me it sounds as if Tesla are selling 2021 Ps with performance that can't match it's advertised spec?

I was aware that the performance in my 2020 P woud drop off a bit at lower SoCs, and I can definitely feel a perceptible difference at 80% SoC compared to, say, 30%, but it is not night and day - it just feels slightly less punchier. From how you've described it your car felt like a completely different beast depending on the temperature. :(
 

Adopado

Active Member
Aug 19, 2019
3,804
2,911
Scotland
Apparently you can purchase the boost if you don't have access to the upgrades section (on lease) - by submitting a service request and it is processed manually.

I think you'd have to be driving pretty mental, to overheat the brakes on public roads! - I like to drive quick but have only ever had brake fade on a Mk2 astra 🤣

I think the P brakes only have an extra inch of diameter, they are not cross drilled or vented? On the track certainly, but can't see it being a problem otherwise.

I have seen one-off brake tests from cold that showed the LR if anything had a slight edge ... the P brakes are designed to keep performing closer to their maximum stopping power even with repeated use and in that scenario would likely well outperform the LR.
 
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Mattallica

Member
Apr 2, 2021
137
97
Durham
Well, I think regardless of the LR comparisons, Tesla have a duty to address this issue as the performance shouldn't be such a sensitive element. We will have to see what the new batches from China do when it comes to the batteries and power delivery when at 50%> SOC and/if cold.
 

btc1k

Member
Jan 18, 2021
464
325
Bristol
Well, I think regardless of the LR comparisons, Tesla have a duty to address this issue as the performance shouldn't be such a sensitive element. We will have to see what the new batches from China do when it comes to the batteries and power delivery when at 50%> SOC and/if cold.
If its same battery, why would the mic be different?
 

Mattallica

Member
Apr 2, 2021
137
97
Durham
If its same battery, why would the mic be different?

Tesla continually develops and refines existing components even with just a few months between models. The Heatpump, being a relatively new addition to the M3 will undoubtedly have been through at least one refining iteration since the main poster bought his car. Perhaps wishful thinking, but the bad press potential for having a 'supercar killing car' that only delivered for 20% of it's 100% battery in warm climates is rather shoddy.
 

GtiMart

Member
Nov 13, 2019
983
827
Quebec City, Canada
I believe China has been receiving a different battery (CATL LFP) which is being introduced in other areas. I do not know if that LFP battery was put in the performance model though... See this thread, and especially post #1282 with a table showing various batteries provided in different models and countries: MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

Also note that the performance model has a track mode which changes the battery temperature management. It's possible that in that mode you could extract more power at low SOC, which maintains the Tesla claim of performance... it's just not quite as true in everyday driving.
 

ACarneiro

Active Member
Jun 20, 2019
1,354
1,094
Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK
Also note that the performance model has a track mode which changes the battery temperature management. It's possible that in that mode you could extract more power at low SOC, which maintains the Tesla claim of performance... it's just not quite as true in everyday driving.
Pulling that stunt would be despicable to the point of severely damaging their reputation, I suspect (and hope).
They’ve been treading on thin ice with how they (mis)treat their customers for a while but we’ve been putting up with it because the cars are so damn good. If they stop being so, I suspect Tesla may be in for an overdue wake up call.
 

Mattallica

Member
Apr 2, 2021
137
97
Durham
Pulling that stunt would be despicable to the point of severely damaging their reputation, I suspect (and hope).
They’ve been treading on thin ice with how they (mis)treat their customers for a while but we’ve been putting up with it because the cars are so damn good. If they stop being so, I suspect Tesla may be in for an overdue wake up call.
What is the caveat with Track Day Mode? Does it invalidate warranties? Or is it the equivalent of M-mode or Sports Mode on other cars (tunes suspension, sharpens throttle and steering, and in this case, tunes the car vicariously through the battery?).
 

btc1k

Member
Jan 18, 2021
464
325
Bristol
Recap for those new to thread - I bought a 2021 P off inventory. Fremont car. Noticed a real issue on some cold nights/morning (6-11c ambient), when state of charge was below 60%. Felt sluggish. Reported to tesla who told me it was "within spec". Ended up going back and forth and it being booked into an SC. Came back to me with latest software. It was slightly improved but issues remained. I rejected the car and it's gone, but now Tesla are chasing me for excess mileage as they claim I used it too much before rejection. Go figure.

Anyway, had a long chat with Tesla techie and his view was:

Issues with P at lower states of charge combined with cold ambient temps are well known and widely reported.
Solution is "not easy".
The P has a larger battery than the LR as the motors require a higher peak power.
However the P has different battery chemistry and higher peak power cannot be sustained at lower states of charge.
A lower state of charge with high power demand causes "voltage sag" which can damage battery, software intervenes to limit peak power.
Combine this with a low temperature and battery goes into a protection mode which is why acceleration is drastically reduced.
Addition of heatpump which scavenges battery heat worsens it even further.
P battery chemistry means it actually needs more heat compared to LR to be able to efficiently release the extra power required.
LR doesn't suffer from same issues because peak power demand not as high, and chemistry different - his words were "more even"
P is not really suited to northern climates.
Made in China has same battery as Fremont P's. Don't expect a quick fix.
Lots of orders for P's in UK this year with the BiK changes. Expects there to be a lot of problems come next winter.


I don't know how true any of that is, and am just repeating his thoughts. His recommendation was:

LR max power is 324kw versus P max power of 377kw. (-53kw)
LR battery more stable and actually outperforms P battery.
Accel boost gives 37kw approx. Taking LR to 361kw. Battery can handle it.
Best option is an LR with accel boost. The difference in max power is just 15kw which is not noticeable once moving.
Only difference between LR and P acceleration mapping is that P has a larger peak power from standstill, so you get more of a punch from a launch, but otherwise once moving, there is no discernible difference between LR and P.


So he said... get an LR with boost and you actually have a car which can perform as a P without the issues of limited acceleration at low SoC and low temps, or at least a much more usable car.

:oops:

Right now I'll go put my tin hat on for when all the P obsessionists turn up
Thanks for the update, very interesting.
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,838
2,713
Shropshire
There was never a significantly reported issue until the heat pump. Tesla probably didn't do enough cold weather testing. If they reduce the battery heat scavenging you either have a cold cabin or (assuming there is also a resistive heater. Is there? ) lose range and it would be embarrassing for the EPA to reduce the range figures.
 

Jez_GB

Supporting Member
Dec 28, 2019
677
616
Nottinghamshire, UK
What is the caveat with Track Day Mode? Does it invalidate warranties? Or is it the equivalent of M-mode or Sports Mode on other cars (tunes suspension, sharpens throttle and steering, and in this case, tunes the car vicariously through the battery?).
Track mode is official Tesla software on the P and is the equivalent of sports mode or whatever in an ICE - no issue with warranty, etc.
 

Jez_GB

Supporting Member
Dec 28, 2019
677
616
Nottinghamshire, UK
Per
There was never a significantly reported issue until the heat pump. Tesla probably didn't do enough cold weather testing. If they reduce the battery heat scavenging you either have a cold cabin or (assuming there is also a resistive heater. Is there? ) lose range and it would be embarrassing for the EPA to reduce the range figures.
personally if I had to make a choice, I’d rather take a hit on range than the degradation in performance. Of course I’m hoping that Tesla get their act together, if they haven’t already!
 
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btc1k

Member
Jan 18, 2021
464
325
Bristol
Per

personally if I had to make a choice, I’d rather take a hit on range than the degradation in performance. Of course I’m hoping that Tesla get their act together, if they haven’t already!
Ideally you should get the option - like the ‘range mode’ on a Model S.
 

ShadowSix

Member
Jan 11, 2021
69
61
Milton Keynes
If you give any weight to this Tesla tech guys insight then it may be quite a while before Tesla get their sh*t together.

Plot twist: New battery isn't fit for purpose?

It does worry me.
 

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