Petition Tesla to make the Model 3 Performance 0-60 <3s

[RayW]

There's a detailed thread on this forum discussing how the battery modules are wired, voltages, inverters, etc... the conclusion seemed to be the current M3 design is maxed out due to the amount of power that can be delivered to the motors.

BTW, isn't this like asking if Ford can make my Fusion go as fast as a Mustang because Chevy released a new Corvette?

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

Are you sure about this - isn't the power dissipated proportional to the energy stored in the capacitor (ie. \propto V^2)?

If this was the case, wouldn't lower current configurations like AWD non-P dissipate even more power and thus need higher power inverters?

I think that was the point, and thus the model 3 with performance package can in principle accelerate much faster.

Yes. It's very much more complex than my the vague summary. It depends on the design, and switching frequency, but the switching losses are often quite considerable. The heating is strongly related to the current being passed, which is highest at high load and lower speeds. The phase current is considerably lower on the AWD model, which is why its down so much on peak torque. The losses are relatively higher at lower duty cycle, but since its switching considerably less current its also heating considerably less. There's always a trade off, but the losses are likely to be much less of a factor in the AWD model if its the same inverter, since its driven so much farther away from its design limits. These things tend to go non linear as you approach the limits. I'm not sure what capacitor you're talking about.

They designed the whole car, so to say it COULD accelerate faster since the tires have more available traction is probably missing the point. To be limited by the tires, they would probably need at least 20% more power, probably more like 30-50% more. This is exceedingly unlikely.

 

[SigNC]

Pretty sure it's been shown elsewhere that the 3P is battery limited. Maybe they could get on that limit sooner though for a little quicker 0-60 but at the expense of reliability.

 

[Swampgator]

I think everyone is forgetting that we have limitations in power delivery due to the 75 kwh pack.

 

[Swampgator]

Pretty sure it's been shown elsewhere that the 3P is battery limited. Maybe they could get on that limit sooner though for a little quicker 0-60 but at the expense of reliability.

Beat me to it!

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

BTW, isn't this like asking if Ford can make my Fusion go as fast as a Mustang because Chevy released a new Corvette?

Basically this. The difference here is people get the impression that its possible since its an electric car with over the air updates. It's really no different than saying some auto manufacture should reflash a car to get 100HP more out of the engine, since its possible. More often than not, the time, effort, and skill put into everyday consumer products is so much more significant than people assume. Real people design this stuff, often with many lifetimes of combined experience. It's a bit illogical to assume they can just somehow do whatever. It was probably carefully designed to do what it does.

I don't doubt they could make it faster. But at some point you trade off huge amounts of reliability for a tiny bit more performance. If they did their job right, its on the edge as is.

 

[Dan203]

Also, it would take sales from the S.

Not sure why people keep saying this. There is a $40k difference between the Mode 3 Performance and the Model S Performance. If people are currently paying that exclusively for the 1s 0-60 time they're insane. There are many other differences between the cars that justify the price and I suspect those are more the reason someone would choose the S over the 3, and not just the 0-60 time.

 

[Swampgator]

Not sure why people keep saying this. There is a $40k difference between the Mode 3 Performance and the Model S Performance. If people are currently paying that exclusively for the 1s 0-60 time they're insane. There are many other differences between the cars that justify the price and I suspect those are more the reason someone would choose the S over the 3, and not just the 0-60 time.

I say this because Tesla and Elon think this. They have said they were worried about cannibalization in the past.
Ask yourself this: If M3P did 0-60 in 2.5 secs for 60K, how many MSP fewer would Tesla sell? I suspect quite a few.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

I think everyone is forgetting that we have limitations in power delivery due to the 75 kwh pack.

Based on the pack design, its sensible to assume that's the case. Tesla isn't just putting 'batteries' into this car. They effectively designed the cells around the intended use, and so they likely have just the right power capabilities that they would require in the expected pack configs. It's not really that its a 75kWh pack, its intrinsic to the design of that pack. Its possible to make a tiny pack that would dump way more power, but there's a price to pay in weight and cost. If you're trying to make a compelling product that's cost competitive, overbuilding stuff for no benefit is really foolish as it leaves more room for your competitors, and increases your costs.

ICE cars are very much limited by 'just software' as well. But modern eco cars don't make 1000HP.

 

[disapr]

I think that like most threads on here, this isn't too serious. But ultimately no one really knows how much headroom is or isn't in the 3P unless you happen to work for Tesla and have asymmetrical information. I kind of doubt that they are running it on the ragged edge, but maybe.

The easiest way to make the 3P accelerate faster is to switch to a super light wheel and rotor with a light tire in an optimal diameter, and to be absolutely certain that the car isn't pulling power due to wheel spin.

 

[Dan203]

I say this because Tesla and Elon think this. They have said they were worried about cannibalization in the past.
Ask yourself this: If M3P did 0-60 in 2.5 secs for 60K, how many MSP fewer would Tesla sell? I suspect quite a few.

I just can't see that many people paying $40k more for a Model S Performance "just" for the 0-60 times. I'm sure there are some, but how many really? A few hundred? A few thousand? I doubt it's a big percentage.

 

[zyzz]

I see a lot of confident claims that 0-60 cannot be improved, but so far with no math to back it up. Anyone?

a lot of people speaking in absolutes when in reality their information is as credible as bigfoot - id bet good money these folks are current p3d owners not wanting to accept the difference between their cars and non p cars (aside from obv hardware) are just a software flashed difference.

Upgrading 0-60 times - 5% power increases - boosting range - offering free ludicrous upgrades for model s - offering stealth performance 3s - upgrading braking power via ota updates

what more evidence do you need to prove this is: 1. feasible 2. done before in the past, many times over 3. very possible that it will be offered at some point for the model 3 (*sugar*, its technically available now - this whole thread is ridiculous)

 

[Nocturnal]

a lot of people speaking in absolutes when in reality their information is as credible as bigfoot - id bet good money these folks are current p3d owners not wanting to accept the difference between their cars and non p cars (aside from obv hardware) are just a software flashed difference.

Not sure what you mean. The consensus is that the AWD and P are the same car with a different software version. Before the 5% HP bump in the P people did lots of complicated math and the theory was that the P3D had maybe 5% left in available power. Then a bit later Tesla releases that number.

Just because they can update software doesn't mean they can make it faster, without reducing life at least.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

a lot of people speaking in absolutes when in reality their information is as credible as bigfoot - id bet good money these folks are current p3d owners not wanting to accept the difference between their cars and non p cars (aside from obv hardware) are just a software flashed difference.

Upgrading 0-60 times - 5% power increases - boosting range - offering free ludicrous upgrades for model s - offering stealth performance 3s - upgrading braking power via ota updates

what more evidence do you need to prove this is: 1. feasible 2. done before in the past, many times over 3. very possible that it will be offered at some point for the model 3 (*sugar*, its technically available now - this whole thread is ridiculous)

Lets say the hardware in the AWD and P3D- is the same. How does one extrapolate that into assuming there's huge overhead left? I'd think its fairly obvious you could make something slower and less powerful. But making it more powerful isn't the same thing. You can't just make a volume knob turn more and suddenly get higher output. This thinking shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the hardware works.

 

[EVortex]

Interesting discussion. Regarding a petition, if you think you can influence Tesla’s resource prioritization and decision making with a customer petition, then more power to you.

 

[Saghost]

Is there a physical difference between the motors/batteries in the 3 vs the S that would prevent them from pushing it to <3s? Or is this all just software? Could they add a ludicrous mode to the 3 that requires the batteries to be warmed up and can only be used in short stints like they did with the S?

Yes, there are important differences. The main one is motor size. The rear motor on a Performance S and X is a big induction motor, 50% heavier as a complete drive unit and able to absorb twice as much power.

(Ludicrous Ravens show 360 kW peak for the rear motor quite consistently, and the front motor that's supposedly the same as the 3 rear motor peaks just shy of 180 kW in the Ravens.)

The battery packs are a third larger, even though the S only weighs twenty percent more.

 

[Dan203]

The easiest way to make the 3P accelerate faster is to switch to a super light wheel and rotor with a light tire in an optimal diameter, and to be absolutely certain that the car isn't pulling power due to wheel spin.

I have never seen a video of a Model 3 Performance spinning the wheels. Can they even do a burnout?

 

[Swampgator]

I have never seen a video of a Model 3 Performance spinning the wheels. Can they even do a burnout?

 

[Nocturnal]

I have never seen a video of a Model 3 Performance spinning the wheels. Can they even do a burnout?

No. Anyone who has added stickier tires reported no difference. Lighter wheels do help of course.

I bet we could get to a 3 second 0 to 60 with going light weight for all suspension, wheels etc. and performing some minor surgery on the car interior for weight loss.

Point of information, that's not a burnout. ​

 

[ZOMGVTEK]