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Petition to remove the 200,000 US sales cap for the $7,500 EV Tax Credit

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Middle class for a family of 4 is not $500 a week gross. $12.50/hr with one wage earner is $25k a year. I would argue it starts at $50k or $25/hr for a single wage earner.

See below. Middle class in LA could be as low as $30k. In either case, I used $75k in my example to calculate your tax liabilities.

Anyhow, add state income tax, utility taxes, airline taxes, hotel taxes, auto tax, gas tax, Tire Disposal, Electronic Disposal, all the sin taxes (very high), etc, etc, etc, etc. You can't even tally up all the different taxes anymore.

Your consumption tax is not going to be 15%. See post #37. Low 40%s I could believe, but 50%? I don't see it.

Being in MA, I too scratched my head at this definition of middle class..... $25K/yr might be pretty "lifestyle-limiting" in the eastern half of my state. And if that's for a FAMILY...? I hope there's some assistance involved.

Middle class for the US is defined as the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile, roughly (different models, put the middle class in different places), right? My 2 second google search couldn't find the exact numbers for middle class per state, so I took CA middle class to be at the 75th percentile, which is $75k. I think that's pretty fair. American middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This calculator puts someone making $75k in LA at the 50th percentile, right in the middle of the middle class. Are you in the US middle class? Try our income calculator | Pew Research Center
Also in LA, $30k a year for 1 person puts you in the middle class. Middle class is a VERY broad definition.

And I accounted for taxes being worst case scenario. No kids, no spouse. Once you have kids, you write them off, reducing your federal tax liability. I just wanted to show that it doesn't add up to 50%, even in CA.
 
I'm not signing it. Tesla has known all along that the limit is 200k. Elon has said the base price of the Model 3 will be $35,000 before incentives because he knows the incentives will be gone before long. I think it's also reasonable to think that at least part of the target audience for the Model 3 will have a tax liability of less than $7500.

The sooner private companies can get away from government incentives, the sooner all the naysayers will be put in their place.
 
See below. Middle class in LA could be as low as $30k. In either case, I used $75k in my example to calculate your tax liabilities.



Your consumption tax is not going to be 15%. See post #37. Low 40%s I could believe, but 50%? I don't see it.



Middle class for the US is defined as the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile, roughly (different models, put the middle class in different places), right? My 2 second google search couldn't find the exact numbers for middle class per state, so I took CA middle class to be at the 75th percentile, which is $75k. I think that's pretty fair. American middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This calculator puts someone making $75k in LA at the 50th percentile, right in the middle of the middle class. Are you in the US middle class? Try our income calculator | Pew Research Center
Also in LA, $30k a year for 1 person puts you in the middle class. Middle class is a VERY broad definition.

And I accounted for taxes being worst case scenario. No kids, no spouse. Once you have kids, you write them off, reducing your federal tax liability. I just wanted to show that it doesn't add up to 50%, even in CA.


Hhhmmm....according to this definition, things are going better than I thought.

Also, they'd be going even better than they currently are....if I moved. LOL
 
Your consumption tax is not going to be 15%. See post #37. Low 40%s I could believe, but 50%? I don't see it.

You used 6.2% for Social Security and 1.45% for the Medicare calculation. That's incorrect. Social Security is 12.4% and Medicare is 2.9%.

Change your employment compensation structure to self-employed and you'll see this more clearly... but everybody in reality pays 12.4%/2.9%. It's structured in a clever way that the majority of voters doesn't think about this, but it's there.


So add another 7.65% to your "low 40%s".
 
You used 6.2% for Social Security and 1.45% for the Medicare calculation. That's incorrect. Social Security is 12.4% and Medicare is 2.9%.

Change your employment compensation structure to self-employed and you'll see this more clearly... but everybody in reality pays 12.4%/2.9%. It's structured in a clever way that the majority of voters doesn't think about this, but it's there.


So add another 7.65% to your "low 40%s".

I thought of that too while I put in my stipulation about the tax cap on the SS tax, but only a fraction of the middle class is self-employed.


But I'll concede, there is a way to get 50% taxation for the middle class :thumbup:
 
You used 6.2% for Social Security and 1.45% for the Medicare calculation. That's incorrect. Social Security is 12.4% and Medicare is 2.9%.

Change your employment compensation structure to self-employed and you'll see this more clearly... but everybody in reality pays 12.4%/2.9%. It's structured in a clever way that the majority of voters doesn't think about this, but it's there.


So add another 7.65% to your "low 40%s".

Yes, if one works for wages his employer ponies up the other half of the OASDI and Medicare tax. In addition every employer pays federal and state unemployment taxes generally on the first $7,000 of wages earned each year. The federal rate is at .006. State rates vary. Here in California our unemployment fund is upside-down. I am guessing that the average rate paid by California employers is around .054. But wait! There's more! California still owes the federal gubbmint over $8,000,000,000 in unemployment monies borrowed 6-8 years ago, so now all employers must pay an additional .015 in "credit reduction" repayments. So every employer pays (.006+.015+.054)(7,000) or $525 in unemployment taxes per employee. This "credit reduction" penalty increases by .003 every year until the debt is paid in full. It is believed that California will have repaid its obligation in 2019 or 2020, unless our economy takes another crap. We can thank Gray Davis for this delightful mess that he championed.

Anyway, I would argue that many employers would pay their employees more if the employers did not have to contribute to Social Security, Medicare Part A insurance premiums and unemployment insurance.

And, Max, you conveniently omitted the mandatory 1% California SDI that is deducted from every employee's net pay (up to a wage maximum of something north of 100K.) :smile:
 
I didn't conveniently omit it, as I have no idea what it is, I just know what I pay in on the other coast, and extrapolated to CA.

I already conceded, it's possible to hit 50% if you're self employed.
 
the way things are CURRENTLY if they continue the rebate, the money has to come from somewhere, and currently it will be coming from higher taxes for everyone else.
Again, no it doesn't. As Rolo hints, it's a debt game at the federal level. Until that stops, it's all just funny money. When that stops, then we can talk about prioritizing and stop looking at this as "gov't must spend on everything under the sun and gov't income from taxation must remain monotonically increasing".

It's zero sum game, status quo thinking that leads to thinking along the lines of "if I don't take your money here, I have to take your money elsewhere". No, you don't; just stop spending the money and you don't need to take it from anywhere.

This is part of why I tend to zone out on politics. The mindset isn't logical and it makes my brain hurt when you start with "assume something absurd, then...".
 
What is a manufacturer for this program?

Regarding the 200,000 vehicle limit per manufacturer, are VW, Audi & Porsche all separate ? Do these 3 VW brands get 600,000 vehicles combined for the tax credit?

What about Chevy & Cadillac? Are they under GM and only get the 200k limit to share?

Likewise fiat /Chrysler, etc.

I tried to look at IRS and found this, but not sure if it's answering the question: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Qualified-Vehicles-Acquired-after-12-31-2009
 
What is a manufacturer for this program?

Regarding the 200,000 vehicle limit per manufacturer, are VW, Audi & Porsche all separate ? Do these 3 VW brands get 600,000 vehicles combined for the tax credit?

What about Chevy & Cadillac? Are they under GM and only get the 200k limit to share?

Likewise fiat /Chrysler, etc.

I tried to look at IRS and found this, but not sure if it's answering the question: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Qualified-Vehicles-Acquired-after-12-31-2009
"And thus was born Tesla Model 3 Variant 1 Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Tesla Motors."
 
First it is not like an itemized deduction it is not a deduction at all, it is a tax Reduction. Where do you think the reduction comes from? Since you are getting a $7500 reduction in what you have to pay in taxes , money you normally would be paying to the government it has to be made up from somewhere. It means someone has to pay more to make up the difference. It is just like the government handing you $7,500. If you start handing $7500 to a million of people the money has to come from somewhere and the only place it can come from is through Federal Taxes.

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I don't believe in Socialism not to be confused with Socalsam.

Oil, gas, and pollution subsidies from the fossil fuel industries could easily pay for extending the EV tax credit to infinity.

And you're actually paying for those fossil fuel subsidies now, and have been all your life, unlike the infinitesimal EV tax credit :)
 
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Again, no it doesn't. As Rolo hints, it's a debt game at the federal level. Until that stops, it's all just funny money. When that stops, then we can talk about prioritizing and stop looking at this as "gov't must spend on everything under the sun and gov't income from taxation must remain monotonically increasing".
Please learn Modern Money Theory if you haven't already. You're almost there!

The real key is that the government prints money. ALL the money. The government has to print the money. If the government doesn't print enough money, private banks will print the money, and that leads to a complicated series of disasters which I could explain given enough time, but suffice it to say that 2008 and 1929 are examples of what happens when bank-created money, considered "just as good as government money", is suddenly NOT considered just as good as government money. (That's specifically what triggered the 2008 crash: "money market" funds suddenly not being as good as money, overnight.)

What matters most is real resources. Money is a sort of lubricant so that we don't have to arrange horrendously complicated barter transactions. It's vital that the government keep printing additional money to keep the economy greased. In order for the economy to grow, more money needs to be added -- newly printed money. You can tell you've got too much money in circulation when inflation starts to get bad.

You always want *some* inflation, though, because you want to discourage people from hoarding money -- you want them to spend it now on useful things (like building factories) rather than socking it away in savings accounts or under mattresses hoping it will be worth more later (which happens with deflation). So the amount of money in circulation needs to be monotonically increasing.

The government usually *loans* money into existence so that the money can be taken back if necessary to fight inflation. But the government needs to *spend* some of the money into existence rather than simply *loaning* the money into existence because it's vital to get money into the hands of people who "aren't creditworthy", so that *they* can participate in the economy too. Otherwise they're excluded and the economy shrinks. (Which is ongoing right now.)

Taxation is used to pull excess money back *out* of the economy to avoid hyperinflation (and to make the money valuable -- it's valuable becuase you can pay your taxes with it...). It should be targeted at (a) people who are doing bad things, like polluting; (b) people who have so much money that they're bribing Congressmen with it, who need to be unable to do that; and (c) other people with money, *if necessary*.

On the other hand, if taxation is used to tax the poor (who don't have any money to pay the taxes) and spending is used to give more money to the rich, then the process is usually economically debilitating. An exception are the very few rich people who, like Elon Musk, dump ALL of their money directly into productive investment into creating new, highly useful real resources like factories. Most rich people do not do this.

The government "debt" is a phony; it's not really debt. We could get rid of it tomorrow by printing $100 or $1000 bills to "pay it off" with and nothing much would change economically. It's only "debt" so that the government can provide the *service* of giving interest-bearing Treasury bonds to various people and financial companies who find such things useful.

That's a brief summary of how money works. This isn't how most people think about money, unfortunately. It isn't how most politicians think about it, either. (*cough* Exceptions include Bernie Sanders, who's hired an MMT expert as his main advisor.) But it matches the real world.

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And when a bunch of manufacturers cars are $7500 cheaper than Tesla because they are still getting the credit? How well will Tesla be doing then.

This does mean that every other manufacturer will have an advantage over Tesla for a while. Tesla's correct response? Make sure the market is so large that the other manufacturers -- the ones who still get the $7500 credit -- cannot saturate the market and force Tesla out. If Tesla is generating sales of 500K/year, I think the other manufacturers would be hard pressed to outcompete Tesla given that the credit phases out after the first 200K vehicles. If Chevy sells 30,000 cars per year it should be insignificant; if Chevy sells 200K/year its credit should disappear in the first year and then they'll be on an even footing with Tesla.

It makes it even more critical for Tesla to expand the market for its electric cars ASAP.

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Instead of increasing the 200k cap, we should petition for a total pool of one million EVs on the road.

This (or even a total pool of 10 million EVs on the road) does make more sense than a per-manufacturer limit.
 
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The government "debt" is a phony; it's not really debt. We could get rid of it tomorrow by printing $100 or $1000 bills to "pay it off" with and nothing much would change economically. It's only "debt" so that the government can provide the *service* of giving interest-bearing Treasury bonds to various people and financial companies who find such things useful.

That's a brief summary of how money works. This isn't how most people think about money, unfortunately. It isn't how most politicians think about it, either. (*cough* Exceptions include Bernie Sanders, who's hired an MMT expert as his main advisor.) But it matches the real world.
So doomers and gloomers like Peter Schiff are operating on outdated notions of money and "fiscal arson?" What's the point of the debt clock then? Keep people in perpetual fear and easier to control? Why was the US credit rating lowered by several credit rating agencies shortly after the 2008 "collapse" if the debt is just phony? It all feels like a shell game.

I guess another potential fly in the ointment is when it relates to foreign entities to whom we are indebted (the FED holdings may be phony but how does that apply to other sovereign nations?) and the concept of world reserve currencies along with how adjustments in the "portfolio" affects global trading and even regional costs of living (i.e. removal of the US dollar creating total havoc at home).

I don't know what to believe anymore. :) I suspect you're not someone who advocates for any FED auditing because of how it would be misread according to MMT (even though the FED is a consortium of private banking cartels operating in secrecy!), which is nonetheless still a theory albeit supported by some evidence as you elucidated. It's all enough to make me want to assume a fetal position in a small hole at the bottom of the ocean.

Ooh, another reason most people don't think of money in this way is because it holds no correlation to how money works on a micro level aka a private business or household. That's the real world to which the everyman is most accustomed. When you look at the national debt in stark terms of $20 USD trillion aka $60k+ per living citizen, it's not at all hard to see why this despairs many people and paints in their mind a bleak future. I guess everything will continue swimmingly in the meantime until it doesn't. :frown:

ANYWAY, to steer this slightly back on topic, according to PEW, I'm in a middle income household much to my shock (my debt is what most makes me feel like a peon) yet my tax liability is still below the threshold of being able to take advantage of any credit (perhaps due to the makeup of my particular household, which includes my self-employed status and a very fixed income elderly parent listed as a dependent). I am thus not motivated to sign this petition to afford you all a (further) piece of the EV tax credit pie (call me selfish).
 
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Again, no it doesn't. As Rolo hints, it's a debt game at the federal level. Until that stops, it's all just funny money. When that stops, then we can talk about prioritizing and stop looking at this as "gov't must spend on everything under the sun and gov't income from taxation must remain monotonically increasing".

It's zero sum game, status quo thinking that leads to thinking along the lines of "if I don't take your money here, I have to take your money elsewhere". No, you don't; just stop spending the money and you don't need to take it from anywhere.

This is part of why I tend to zone out on politics. The mindset isn't logical and it makes my brain hurt when you start with "assume something absurd, then...".

Your words make it seem like you're disagreeing with me, but the underlying context of my response and what you just wrote is the same.

Currently, now, today, likely in the near future -- it's exactly as I said (feds take money and use it/waste it on random stuff. If they need to use/waste more of it, they need to take more money in terms of taxes). I never said this is the correct approach (actually quite the opposite, the part you didn't quote said there are better ways of doing it), I just said that currently if they extend the program, they need to find a place to get more money from, and currently that'll be in terms of increased tax dollars.
 
So doomers and gloomers like Peter Schiff are operating on outdated notions of money and "fiscal arson?" What's the point of the debt clock then? Keep people in perpetual fear and easier to control? Why was the US credit rating lowered by several credit rating agencies shortly after the 2008 "collapse" if the debt is just phony? It all feels like a shell game.

I guess another potential fly in the ointment is when it relates to foreign entities to whom we are indebted (the FED holdings may be phony but how does that apply to other sovereign nations?) and the concept of world reserve currencies along with how adjustments in the "portfolio" affects global trading and even regional costs of living (i.e. removal of the US dollar creating total havoc at home).

I don't know what to believe anymore. :) I suspect you're not someone who advocates for any FED auditing because of how it would be misread according to MMT (even though the FED is a consortium of private banking cartels operating in secrecy!), which is nonetheless still a theory albeit supported by some evidence as you elucidated. It's all enough to make me want to assume a fetal position in a small hole at the bottom of the ocean.

Ooh, another reason most people don't think of money in this way is because it holds no correlation to how money works on a micro level aka a private business or household. That's the real world to which the everyman is most accustomed. When you look at the national debt in stark terms of $20 USD trillion aka $60k+ per living citizen, it's not at all hard to see why this despairs many people and paints in their mind a bleak future. I guess everything will continue swimmingly in the meantime until it doesn't. :frown:

ANYWAY, to steer this slightly back on topic, according to PEW, I'm in a middle income household much to my shock (my debt is what most makes me feel like a peon) yet my tax liability is still below the threshold of being able to take advantage of any credit (perhaps due to the makeup of my particular household, which includes my self-employed status and a very fixed income elderly parent listed as a dependent). I am thus not motivated to sign this petition to afford you all a (further) piece of the EV tax credit pie (call me selfish).

It's sort of a Catch 22, in reverse. $30k EVs are NOT fiscally responsible. There I said it. If you are on a limited budget, you really should not be looking at any EV's in 2016 except used. The additional price does not pay for itself unless you drive very high miles AND have very cheap or free electricity. Used EVs (I'd suggest the Volt since the price is low, no range anxiety, no need for L2 charging, and you can turn the included cable to L2 for just a few dollars) are cheap BECAUSE of the rebates. You can get a Volt for $9 to $15k and the Li battery is still way over 90% and is still guaranteed. Leaf batteries don't hold up as well.

The reason used EVs are affordable for limited income folk is mostly due to the high rebates in place. When the rebates stop, the used prices will climb. People who pay $25k for a $35k car can't sell them at >$20k used. The rebates also have a secondary effect by increasing the sales of new EVs which also increases the used pool.

So there is a benefit for lower income (or fiscally responsible) EV buyers to support the rebates. You still get the price benefit of the program if you buy used.
 
There is no EV on the market today that I would buy anyway. ;) I would never consider a Leaf since I'm in the desert and am quite aware of their piss-poor battery cooling management not to mention their already limited range. I haven't read as much about the 1st generation Volts in this capacity but have found them intriguing. Since I do have solar PV, I can use that to offset oil spikes, which is a (more selfish) reason why I would like an EV. I have a hybrid that's nearly paid off, and I'm considering going against my better judgement and putting down a $1k deposit (0% APR for 20 months) on the 3, fiscally responsible or not. Uncertainty drives me batty.
 
What is a manufacturer for this program?

Regarding the 200,000 vehicle limit per manufacturer, are VW, Audi & Porsche all separate ? Do these 3 VW brands get 600,000 vehicles combined for the tax credit?

What about Chevy & Cadillac? Are they under GM and only get the 200k limit to share?

Likewise fiat /Chrysler, etc.

I tried to look at IRS and found this, but not sure if it's answering the question: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Qualified-Vehicles-Acquired-after-12-31-2009

Chevy and Cadillac are the same manufacturer (GM). Toyota and Lexus, Honda and Acura, etc.
 
What is a manufacturer for this program?

Regarding the 200,000 vehicle limit per manufacturer, are VW, Audi & Porsche all separate ? Do these 3 VW brands get 600,000 vehicles combined for the tax credit?
...
Likewise fiat /Chrysler, etc.

I tried to look at IRS and found this, but not sure if it's answering the question: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Qualified-Vehicles-Acquired-after-12-31-2009
VW and Audi should not get 200K each. They've been under the same parent company, the VW Group for many years. VW and Audi are merely brands of VAG. Porsche is a tricky one as the ownership story only somewhat recently changed.

Fiat/Chrysler should only get 200K in total as they're both part of FCAGroup - Home
.