Phantom Braking now bad on vision only

[Dilly]

Just reported on Electrek news feed

Tesla has a serious phantom braking problem in Autopilot — Electrek

Tesla is seeing an increase in complaints over serious and dangerous phantom braking events plaguing Autopilot in the latest software updates.

apple.news

 

[andyf1140]

I read recently that Elon plans to ship the "model 2" without a steering wheel relying fully on FSD, that makes me scared!

 

[Dilly]

Having read the article, I hope there will be some pressure on Tesla to put a toggle in to turn off the side cameras until this gets resolved.
what is true, is that the causes are fairly common but our car’s reactions are very varied.
it’s going to be a tough nut to crack!

 

[Drew57]

We are all regarded as unpaid Beta testers so I suppose as far as Tesla are concerned it's fair game until such time as the US authorities decide to regulate against it.

As an aside my wife is about too order a Fiat 500e as a second car & after an extensive loan over the weekend it's been refreshing to have properly functioning wipers, high beam and a chance to try out their autonomous driving systems* On the A500, M6 and other stretches of dual carriageway it performed faultlessly. Also of note is their honest description of L2 rather than Teslas' hyped up phraseology.

*AEBS (advanced emergency braking system)
*Autonomous Driving L2 with Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Centering.

 

[JonB]

My car is a MiC Model 3LR to be collected early Dec, should I be worried? Do the MiC cars have the radars deleted or is this something for Fremont cars at the moment? Moreover is it a problem afflicting all cars or just those with the optional full Autopilot package installed?

Regarding "You are all Beta testers", I do not think that is going to wash in the UK for safety critical systems. A phantom braking event that results in a crash, particularly where loss of life occurs, will not reflect well on Tesla. Sure, they will say "driver should have been in control" but you'd need inhumanly fast reflexes to counteract a strong phantom brake event.

Speaking of which, how would you counteract it? Throttle?

On the other hand... Phantom Braking - Has it gotten better?

 

[Tony Hoyle]

I think our tougher rules would stop big changes being made (like removing radar) without the car requiring new safety tests etc. but it may be that they just haven't bothered thinking beyond the US - to our benefit, in this case.

I suspected the hype that phantom braking was all caused by radar was just bovine excrement and alas appear to be correct.

 

[MrT3]

Speaking of which, how would you counteract it? Throttle?

Yes

 

[Tam]

...should I be worried?...

You should be fine as long as you've got good reflexes to accelerate and counteract the false slowdowns or phantom brakes.

...Do the MiC cars have the radars deleted...

According to Tesla's blog, only North American Model 3 and Y are radarless.

... or is this something for Fremont cars at the moment?...

Correct for Model 3 and Y for North America (if Fremont exports them outside of North America, they will still have radars).

...Moreover is it a problem afflicting all cars or just those with the optional full Autopilot package installed?...

The cause was blamed on all Tesla cars that use radars so it became the rationale for Tesla to go Pure Vision and delete radar.

...Regarding "You are all Beta testers", I do not think that is going to wash in the UK for safety critical systems...

It's in your owner's manual so there's no need to "think". It's a fact that people are buying Tesla beta globally and they may not read the owner's manual to be aware that it's really "beta".

...A phantom braking event that results in a crash, particularly where loss of life occurs, will not reflect well on Tesla...

That could happen but I have not heard one just yet.

...Sure, they will say "driver should have been in control" but you'd need inhumanly fast reflexes to counteract a strong phantom brake event...

It's human's skills vs machine power. Who would prevail?

...Speaking of which, how would you counteract it? Throttle?...

Yes, you need to press on the accelerator to counteract phantom brakes.

 

[Peter 224]

Weirdly, in Autopilot I'm getting repeated warnings that the "Steering has been corrected" or similar, then nothing happens and the same with phantom braking: a big red blob on the screen and chimes to tell ne that brakes have been applied, when they haven't.
Other than on a dual carriageway Autopilot is pointless. This is irritating as my main use of cruise control used to be avoid 20 and 30 speed limit cameras.

But the wipers work well....

 

[adsheff]

I've noticed a marked decrease in phantom braking recently in my 2019 Model 3 LR. In fact, my usual 700 mile round trip last weekend I didn't have a single incident, which is pretty much a first.

 

[MrT3]

I've noticed a marked decrease in phantom braking recently in my 2019 Model 3 LR. In fact, my usual 700 mile round trip last weekend I didn't have a single incident, which is pretty much a first.

What software version are you running?

 

[Stranger Dings]

I’m now sick and tired of Autopilot and TACC. I just want a ‘dumb’ cruise control that keeps to a set speed. In my old Merc I used to use cruise control in 20 and 30 mph zones to avoid tickets. The Tesla version is useless in urban environments and Phantom Braking makes it unusable on motorways.

I did a return journey from Bristol to Manchester last week and my passengers were terrified by the bloody thing keep slamming on the brakes. It is useless and worse than that, dangerous.

 

[Columbo]

Had a really bad phantom brake on the A14 today, was passing a haybale loaded lorry with trailer that was being towed by a recovery truck. Midway through passing in lane 2 on the dual carriageway the M3 did a full on emergency brake! Never had it that bad in the year and a half I've had it and it's never done it just passing a lorry, it mainly does it when you're moving from lane 3 to 2 with a truck in 1.

 

[pgkevet]

Had a really bad phantom brake on the A14 today, was passing a haybale loaded lorry with trailer that was being towed by a recovery truck. Midway through passing in lane 2 on the dual carriageway the M3 did a full on emergency brake! Never had it that bad in the year and a half I've had it and it's never done it just passing a lorry, it mainly does it when you're moving from lane 3 to 2 with a truck in 1.

Folk have differing definitions of phantom braking. It’s only when you experience a real one (as above) that you realise that there's no way you can react fast enough to block it. I’ve had two and just lucky that the cars following managed to avoid collision. Since then I just don't use my FSD on any busy stretches or when there's a vehicle within at least 10 car lengths of my rear - it's just not worth the stress. In reality that means i hardy ever use autopilot since few of our motorways are ever quiet.

 

[Sean.]

Despite the hype, promises and frankly BS announcements of improvements and rewrites - FSD autopilot remains a feature, in my experience over the last four years that has steadily and measurably become worse over time.

The passing ‘behaviour’ of the system (at least here in the UK) has gone from “wow that was err brave” in the heady days of 2017 (pre hugely publicised AP accidents in the US) to just about unusable “dangerously timid” and unpredictable on our A-road and motorway cruising and passing situations.

When you stress and fret over engaging it on a long journey - surely it’s time to call it a day. They should be honest with people. It’s a feature that cost thousands that is frankly rubbish.

 

[Simonix]

Autopilot is something i am personally not too bothered about.

However, I do use cruise control (adaptive or “dumb”) a lot. On all types of roads and speed zones.
If the Tesla version of this (TACC) is basically unusable on anything but quiet stretches of motorway and dual carriageways, then that will make the next 3 years of my lease a misery!

 

[Tony Hoyle]

Tacc is autopilot, just without the steering control. All the same caveats apply to both.

 

[init6]

Other than on a dual carriageway Autopilot is pointless. This is irritating as my main use of cruise control used to be avoid 20 and 30 speed limit cameras.

If the Tesla version of this (TACC) is basically unusable on anything but quiet stretches of motorway and dual carriageways, then that will make the next 3 years of my lease a misery!

You can use TACC without Autopilot. I find I only get phantom braking when using Autopilot. I frequently use TACC to get me through average speed camera areas with no issues.

 

[Simonix]

You can use TACC without Autopilot. I find I only get phantom braking when using Autopilot. I frequently use TACC to get me through average speed camera areas with no issues.

Interesting, thanks!

I had read elsewhere on here that it was just as bad on TACC as well.

I even had it happen on my test drive!

 

[init6]

Interesting, thanks!

I had read elsewhere on here that it was just as bad on TACC as well.

I even had it happen on my test drive!

Technically I should have said Autosteer. It along with TACC are components of Autopilot.
YMMV, but I've not had a lot of problems with phantom braking. There's one junction near Stirling where it will trigger if I'm using auto steer, but not with TACC.