Phantom braking without self-driving features?

[Tha_Ape]

I figured out what caused a majority of mine and I suspect other people's.

If you use cruise control, it will limit your speed to x amount over the the limit.

Sometimes on on/off ramps or crossing other roads it gets confused and uses what ever limit it thinks the off/onramp or bridge crossing the highway is.

Eventually I learned to look at the display during unintentional slow downs and saw the the perceived speed limit changed (or type of road). If you're on a back road it won't let you go more than 5mph over the limit with autosteer, but that limit isn't in effect on the highway. So when I am going 80 in a 65 with no issue and get on a 65mph offramp it would slow me to 70 unexpectedly.

Anyway, it doesn't solve the problem, but it's easy more predictable.

People that live in different areas will likely have different results. So i can totally see how some people have never had it happen while others have it happen frequently.

For what is worth, id say it happens to me once every couple of months because the roads I normally take are fine. It's generally when I'm going to a new place

 

[SpencerR]

Well, since I don’t have USS, then I can only assume it’s relying on the camera. And unless you’re claiming the road somehow made a shadow of a car or other obstacle ahead, I don’t know what else to say other than I’m more inclined to think the software is bugged.

Even if FSD itself is a bunch of ”advance” options, it doesn’t necessarily mean parts of its code isn’t taking effect elsewhere.

That said, I’ve said my piece. I had similar issues with my traded-in Honda HR-V and that had radar. So I’ll just get used to it and that’s all.

I highlighted exactly where you are correct. It is a software issue that causes phantom braking combined with its perception of an obstacle from the camera (hardware). In my case, my Tesla cameras see mirages on the desert road ahead of me and for some reason register it as an 18-wheeler that has suddenly appeared, and it will RAPIDLY slow me down (think: slamming on the brakes).

Better cameras and improved software are the fix (and this is a pipe dream: but combining with USS and Radar would be nice too).

I figured out what caused a majority of mine and I suspect other people's.

If you use cruise control, it will limit your speed to x amount over the the limit.

Sometimes on on/off ramps or crossing other roads it gets confused and uses what ever limit it thinks the off/onramp or bridge crossing the highway is.

Eventually I learned to look at the display during unintentional slow downs and saw the the perceived speed limit changed (or type of road). If you're on a back road it won't let you go more than 5mph over the limit with autosteer, but that limit isn't in effect on the highway. So when I am going 80 in a 65 with no issue and get on a 65mph offramp it would slow me to 70 unexpectedly.

Anyway, it doesn't solve the problem, but it's easy more predictable.

People that live in different areas will likely have different results. So i can totally see how some people have never had it happen while others have it happen frequently.

For what is worth, id say it happens to me once every couple of months because the roads I normally take are fine. It's generally when I'm going to a new place

That isn't what phantom braking is. That is the car following a set of parameters that the user has put in place.

Phantom braking is when I am on the freeway going 70mph on autopilot for 30 minutes, then OUT OF NOWHERE AND FOR NO PERCEPTIBLE REASON my car will just SLAMMMM on the brakes (or rapidly regen, whatever the mechanism may be). The other day my car did this on the freeway and it made my shoulders come away from the backrest of my seat because it was so abrupt.

 

[Tha_Ape]

I highlighted exactly where you are correct. It is a software issue that causes phantom braking combined with its perception of an obstacle from the camera (hardware). In my case, my Tesla cameras see mirages on the desert road ahead of me and for some reason register it as an 18-wheeler that has suddenly appeared, and it will RAPIDLY slow me down (think: slamming on the brakes).

Better cameras and improved software are the fix (and this is a pipe dream: but combining with USS and Radar would be nice too).


That isn't what phantom braking is. That is the car following a set of parameters that the user has put in place.

Phantom braking is when I am on the freeway going 70mph on autopilot for 30 minutes, then OUT OF NOWHERE AND FOR NO PERCEPTIBLE REASON my car will just SLAMMMM on the brakes (or rapidly regen, whatever the mechanism may be). The other day my car did this on the freeway and it made my shoulders come away from the backrest of my seat because it was so abrupt.

I always assumed phantom braking was when the car braked unexpectedly. For me it's no longer "phantom" because I figured out why it happened. I did caveat "most", so I'm sure there are other reasons, but for me thats what I figured out

 

[rwiegand]

Phantom breaking is one of those curious phenomena, of which there are several in Teslas, that seem to affect only a portion of cars/drivers. There is certainly selection bias here as mostly people who don't experience the problem don't bother to report that they aren't having it. One might hope that Tesla is getting cars or data from that group and tearing them apart (literally or figuratively) to find out what is going on and why it happens only in selected cars. You'd think with all the smarts in the car and the numbers of vehicles on the road now it would be possible to collect the data from hundreds or thousands of events and non-events happening at about the same time on the same piece of road to really nail down what is happening. That's hoping for a lot, I guess. It would be useful just to have some idea of what fraction of cars are afflicted-- no idea whether it is one in ten or one in 10,000.
I'm part of the fortunate group who has not yet had a "phantom braking" event in about 10,000 mules of driving.

 

[SpencerR]

I'm part of the fortunate group who has not yet had a "phantom braking" event in about 10,000 mules of driving.

What kind of driving are you doing? I am on the freeway/highways a lot in California. I have a significant PB event probably 7 out of 10 drives

 

[AlexHung]

What kind of driving are you doing? I am on the freeway/highways a lot in California. I have a significant PB event probably 7 out of 10 drives

I am in NoCal and have driven up to Oregon and down to LA Multiple times. So far I had PB only on one particular short stretch on the way to LA. Everywhere else, I don’t get PB.

 

[gordita]

There are several mini-features that get bundled into Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot...

1. Lane Departure Warning - if you start to drift out of your lane, your car will alert you
2. Lane Keep Assist - if you drift out of a lane, your car will nudge you back in
3. Lane Centering - your car will actively steer you in the middle of the lane
4. Traffic Aware Cruise Control - manage your speed, down to a stop.
5. Map-aware Cruise Control - adjust speed for curves based on GPS data
6. Automatic Lane Change - hit the blinker, and the car will change lanes
7. Automatic Overtake - car can automatically initiate an overtake of a slower car (2 lane changes)
8. Self driving stuff... - these are things like automatic entry and exit highways, stopping at stop signs and stop lights without cars in front of you, turning on city streets, etc.

Tesla's basic Autopilot is the combination (or branding) of 3-5. This manages the speed for you and adjusts for cars and objects in front of you. And it steers the car in the center of the lane.

Enhanced Autopilot adds #6 plus several other things (including navigating on and off highways).

I don't think Tesla does #7. And the other features of EAP and FSD are 8 and beyond.

nicely articulated. thank you.
i'm close to pulling a trigger on my first tesla/MY - to be clear, basic AP includes points 1 through 5 in your post, correct? (not 3-5).
At the moment, I do not see us subscribing to EAP or FSD but points 1 -3 are absolutely important (especially the way my better half drives).
thanks

 

[dachshund]

I use the cruise control - TACC - on the freeway a lot and have had no problems. I have read that the continued collection of data by Tesla will gradually eliminate most of the phantom braking. The autopilot/FSD system seems to run better if the car is following another one.

VoltWagon, how do you like the ID4? Other than the charging issues.

 

[dachshund]

Phantom braking is when I am on the freeway going 70mph on autopilot for 30 minutes, then OUT OF NOWHERE AND FOR NO PERCEPTIBLE REASON my car will just SLAMMMM on the brakes (or rapidly regen, whatever the mechanism may be). The other day my car did this on the freeway and it made my shoulders come away from the backrest of my seat because it was so abrupt.

I'm curious if you're checking the speed limit your car has displayed when this happens. Is it usually in the same locations?

I'd make a service call. I would call this a serious problem. Also have you recalibrated the cameras?

Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[exxxviii]

nicely articulated. thank you.
i'm close to pulling a trigger on my first tesla/MY - to be clear, basic AP includes points 1 through 5 in your post, correct? (not 3-5).
At the moment, I do not see us subscribing to EAP or FSD but points 1 -3 are absolutely important (especially the way my better half drives).
thanks

Yes, basic AP includes 1-5. (Though to be fair, 1 & 2 are separate features unrelated to AP.)

EAP adds 6 some of 8, and maybe 7, not sure about overtake. FSD adds ability to fully navigate almost every road.

 

[rwiegand]

What kind of driving are you doing? I am on the freeway/highways a lot in California. I have a significant PB event probably 7 out of 10 drives

Majority of miles on highways, majority of hours on local roads. Minimal city driving. I use TACC on the highway most of the time. I have experimented with AP but find the irritation/benefit ratio far exceeds my tolerance-- it wants more movement of the steering wheel to stay engaged than normal driving requires.

 

[mrbulk]

Had phantom braking (PB) on my 2018 Model S w/radar, mostly freeway overpasses and other situations where the cause was somewhat discernible, but with the new Model Y (without radar) the only, and I mean Only, PB incidents were when road tripping. On a dark desert highway (yes I like my Eagles, hehe) the PB only seemed to come up when there was a mirage reflection on the road surface aways up ahead. Because it was all long roadway with no intersections or lights or overpasses or anything else, most times not even another single car on the road with us, I can only attribute PB to those mirage reflections.

But otherwise I use AP all the time (and I mean ALL the time, especially in the city on longer unbroken routes, because in my retirement years I tend to go for easy rather than complex) and the moment it switches on my shoulders relax, I notice the words in the music playing, and I get a better awareness of my surroundings as I pass them and other vehicles as I travel alongside them. And not once has it ever PB'd.

Thass muh story and ah'm stickin' to it!

 

[SpencerR]

I am in NoCal and have driven up to Oregon and down to LA Multiple times. So far I had PB only on one particular short stretch on the way to LA. Everywhere else, I don’t get PB.

I'm curious if you're checking the speed limit your car has displayed when this happens. Is it usually in the same locations?

I'd make a service call. I would call this a serious problem. Also have you recalibrated the cameras?

Sorry to hijack the thread.

My PB is always occurring on stretches of freeway/highway with no changes in traffic flow or speed limit. For example, this stretch of road is my biggest culprit. My most recent event two days ago occurred on Highway 46 (approximately in this spot). I drive this highway every 4 days. I get PB almost every time, somewhere on this stretch of Highway 46. My ONLY guess is that it is due to mirages (like this) that the camera is seeing up ahead and registering as a vehicle (sometimes I will see a semi-truck pop up on the display despite no vehicles in front of me). This area is desert road and flat, so when the sun is out, im almost always getting mirages up ahead.

 

[SpencerR]

Had phantom braking (PB) on my 2018 Model S w/radar, mostly freeway overpasses and other situations where the cause was somewhat discernible, but with the new Model Y (without radar) the only, and I mean Only, PB incidents were when road tripping. On a dark desert highway (yes I like my Eagles, hehe) the PB only seemed to come up when there was a mirage reflection on the road surface aways up ahead. Because it was all long roadway with no intersections or lights or overpasses or anything else, most times not even another single car on the road with us, I can only attribute PB to those mirage reflections.

But otherwise I use AP all the time (and I mean ALL the time, especially in the city on longer unbroken routes, because in my retirement years I tend to go for easy rather than complex) and the moment it switches on my shoulders relax, I notice the words in the music playing, and I get a better awareness of my surroundings as I pass them and other vehicles as I travel alongside them. And not once has it ever PB'd.

Thass muh story and ah'm stickin' to it!

I posted my response to the other two folks and then saw yours. This is my exact experience.

 

[dachshund]

My PB is always occurring on stretches of freeway/highway with no changes in traffic flow or speed limit. For example, this stretch of road is my biggest culprit. My most recent event two days ago occurred on Highway 46 (approximately in this spot). I drive this highway every 4 days. I get PB almost every time, somewhere on this stretch of Highway 46. My ONLY guess is that it is due to mirages (like this) that the camera is seeing up ahead and registering as a vehicle (sometimes I will see a semi-truck pop up on the display despite no vehicles in front of me). This area is desert road and flat, so when the sun is out, im almost always getting mirages up ahead.

I would make a service call. Tesla may be able to fix it. The known locations apparently can be updated with data (somehow) as far as I understand.
In the meantime, since you know where it occurs, that's where you turn it off.

 

[SpencerR]

I would make a service call. Tesla may be able to fix it. The known locations apparently can be updated with data (somehow) as far as I understand.
In the meantime, since you know where it occurs, that's where you turn it off.

It is always along that stretch, but never in the same spot. 34 miles of straight, flat, 70mph cruising is the perfect use for AP, so it really sucks to not use it there. But it also really sucks to almost taste my pre-drive meal for a 2nd time as Muskdaddy sends my forehead toward my steering column when I least expect it

 

[mrbulk]

My PB is always occurring on stretches of freeway/highway with no changes in traffic flow or speed limit. For example, this stretch of road is my biggest culprit. My most recent event two days ago occurred on Highway 46 (approximately in this spot). I drive this highway every 4 days. I get PB almost every time, somewhere on this stretch of Highway 46. My ONLY guess is that it is due to mirages (like this) that the camera is seeing up ahead and registering as a vehicle (sometimes I will see a semi-truck pop up on the display despite no vehicles in front of me). This area is desert road and flat, so when the sun is out, im almost always getting mirages up ahead.

Hey I just saw your reply to my later post, so we MUST be correct! Right on brother! *HighFive*

 

[Whoze]

Sadly, I'm thinking of trading in my new VW ID.4 for a Tesla MY. I've about had it with the limited CCS charging network and VW's poor service. But Tesla's phantom braking reports have me worried. Reading reports from this site, it seems that all or most seem to be on vehicles that have some flavor of self-driving features.
So my question: Has anyone had phantom braking issues in the "plain vanilla" Model Y? If so, is there any indication the problems are lessening in the 2023 model?

As a retired pilot, I can tell you that the number of times, I have had to override that 100 million dollar airplane's autopilot to stop it killing everyone borders of the ridiculous. Can you expect to be pitch perfect with a $100K system? People's expectations are just too high. I have gotten Phantom Slow-down. And why are people following so close to be unable to avoid hitting the guy ahead? I use EAP for city driving so that Autopilot can do all the start and stop driving for me. The only thing it can't do is turn at a junction, or stop when I am number one at the traffic lights. It even dings me when the lights turn green!
I haven't had to use a T Super charger yet. I plug in every night at home with the mobile charger at 32A. It's been great. With a wall charger, I think a MY can do 50A charging. You probably won't ever bother charging out again on a typical day.

 

[andaconda]

My PB is always occurring on stretches of freeway/highway with no changes in traffic flow or speed limit. For example, this stretch of road is my biggest culprit. My most recent event two days ago occurred on Highway 46 (approximately in this spot). I drive this highway every 4 days. I get PB almost every time, somewhere on this stretch of Highway 46. My ONLY guess is that it is due to mirages (like this) that the camera is seeing up ahead and registering as a vehicle (sometimes I will see a semi-truck pop up on the display despite no vehicles in front of me). This area is desert road and flat, so when the sun is out, im almost always getting mirages up ahead.

Now that is some cool accurate data for the Telsa team to work with!

 

[espresso_]

Dang, I just got the PB today out of nowhere. I was driving with TACC on a 40mph speed limit street, set cruise control at 40. All of sudden my car slammed the brake hardly with absolutely no obstacles in front. The road was clear, no rain no sun no snow nothing, it was a kinda an overcast day. I was not really expected that, felt like my soul left my body in that fraction of moment lol. Now I'm kinda hesitant to even use cruise control on highway, I'm not sure how I'm gonna feel with that happened at a much higher speed.