Phantom braking without self-driving features?

[VoltWagon]

Sadly, I'm thinking of trading in my new VW ID.4 for a Tesla MY. I've about had it with the limited CCS charging network and VW's poor service. But Tesla's phantom braking reports have me worried. Reading reports from this site, it seems that all or most seem to be on vehicles that have some flavor of self-driving features.
So my question: Has anyone had phantom braking issues in the "plain vanilla" Model Y? If so, is there any indication the problems are lessening in the 2023 model?

 

[jjrandorin]

Sadly, I'm thinking of trading in my new VW ID.4 for a Tesla MY. I've about had it with the limited CCS charging network and VW's poor service. But Tesla's phantom braking reports have me worried. Reading reports from this site, it seems that all or most seem to be on vehicles that have some flavor of self-driving features.
So my question: Has anyone had phantom braking issues in the "plain vanilla" Model Y? If so, is there any indication the problems are lessening in the 2023 model?

If you dont use Autopilot / EAP / FSD there is really no phantom braking. I have been driving like that (basically driving my car myself) and have experienced zero events over my 4.5 years of model 3 ownership and my car has FSD.

 

[exxxviii]

I’ve never had a phantom braking event. I use autopilot all the time because it’s fun. Internet forums have a negative selection bias. Phantom braking is possible, but I don’t think anyone here has an accurate sense of probability.

 

[smogne41]

Sadly, I'm thinking of trading in my new VW ID.4 for a Tesla MY. I've about had it with the limited CCS charging network and VW's poor service. But Tesla's phantom braking reports have me worried. Reading reports from this site, it seems that all or most seem to be on vehicles that have some flavor of self-driving features.
So my question: Has anyone had phantom braking issues in the "plain vanilla" Model Y? If so, is there any indication the problems are lessening in the 2023 model?

If you are manually driving it should not happen. However, the only cruise control available on a new Tesla is Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC) and there is no 'dumb' cruise control option like on many cars that also have traffic aware cruise. TACC is really just Autopilot with you doing the steering, so all the phantom braking that happens with AP will also happen with TACC. So the questions you need to answer are: are you someone who uses cruise control a lot, and would be be upset if you end up with a car that does not have a cruise control that would work for you. And yes, there does seem to be a tone of variability in who experiences phantom braking both from car to car and route to route.

 

[smogne41]

I’ve never had a phantom braking event. I use autopilot all the time because it’s fun. Internet forums have a negative selection bias. Phantom braking is possible, but I don’t think anyone here has an accurate sense of probability.

Congratulations, you are lucky and got a good car and drive it in routes not prone to phantom braking. It is absolutely a problem for many others though.

 

[VoltWagon]

Wow, thanks for the very rapid replies, everyone - much appreciated! And my apologies for my lack of Tesla Terminology knowledge. I'm learning a little about EAP, NOA, and FSD.

So smogne41, it sounds like you're saying all Teslas now have the EAP? And from what I read recently, the newer Model Y has offered a full self-driving option for $15,000 extra, but that feature has been recently recalled?

Anyway, both my 2017 Prius and my 2021 ID.4 have what they call "Adaptive Cruise Control" (ACC). So I think that's equivalent to EAP? And yes, ACC is extremely important to me. But I don't care about the other self-driving features. So if I buy a Model Y, it will be the 2023 "Plain Vanilla" Long Range version. But I'll buy it only if phantom braking is very rare when using cruise control.

The phantom braking reports sound equally scary to my ID.4's recall due to "sudden power loss". VW says it is just a software fix, but it sounds like it could take them a couple of months to offer the fix. In general, VW's software updates are pathetic so far.

 

[smogne41]

Wow, thanks for the very rapid replies, everyone - much appreciated! And my apologies for my lack of Tesla Terminology knowledge. I'm learning a little about EAP, NOA, and FSD.

So smogne41, it sounds like you're saying all Teslas now have the EAP? And from what I read recently, the newer Model Y has offered a full self-driving option for $15,000 extra, but that feature has been recently recalled?

Anyway, both my 2017 Prius and my 2021 ID.4 have what they call "Adaptive Cruise Control" (ACC). So I think that's equivalent to EAP? And yes, ACC is extremely important to me. But I don't care about the other self-driving features. So if I buy a Model Y, it will be the 2023 "Plain Vanilla" Long Range version. But I'll buy it only if phantom braking is very rare when using cruise control.

The phantom braking reports sound equally scary to my ID.4's recall due to "sudden power loss". VW says it is just a software fix, but it sounds like it could take them a couple of months to offer the fix. In general, VW's software updates are pathetic so far.

All Teslas now come With basic AP and TACC. EAP and FSD are options (which give you more self-driving features over basic AP). Nobody can say if you will get a car with almost no phantom braking. Many people seem to not experience it much or at all, and others (one of which I know) have it happen all the time and have given up on using cruise at all. Total roll of the dice right now unfortunately, and we don't have great statistics on how prevalent it really is. The only saving grace is it is a super fun car to drive yourself at least. But good luck on your decision either way.

 

[Elayea]

There’s a difference between autopilot (AP, comes standard on all model y) and enhanced autopilot (EAP, costs $6000). The basic autopilot is the cruise control (TACC) + autosteer.

 

[GoVols!]

Wow, thanks for the very rapid replies, everyone - much appreciated! And my apologies for my lack of Tesla Terminology knowledge. I'm learning a little about EAP, NOA, and FSD.

So smogne41, it sounds like you're saying all Teslas now have the EAP? And from what I read recently, the newer Model Y has offered a full self-driving option for $15,000 extra, but that feature has been recently recalled?

Anyway, both my 2017 Prius and my 2021 ID.4 have what they call "Adaptive Cruise Control" (ACC). So I think that's equivalent to EAP? And yes, ACC is extremely important to me. But I don't care about the other self-driving features. So if I buy a Model Y, it will be the 2023 "Plain Vanilla" Long Range version. But I'll buy it only if phantom braking is very rare when using cruise control.

The phantom braking reports sound equally scary to my ID.4's recall due to "sudden power loss". VW says it is just a software fix, but it sounds like it could take them a couple of months to offer the fix. In general, VW's software updates are pathetic so far.

Wait until Mar. 1 “investor meeting” to find out what changes will be made as a big upgrade could be coming soon with new hardware called HW.4. Folks will say it’s more for those who are into FSD(full self driving) but it goes beyond that. With the potential “hopeful” update, HD radar in conjunction with new cameras may be added to the rear bumper and front headlight housings and mirrors. This would provide 360’ top down view, rear cross traffic alert and front pedestrians/car avoidance detection. This is all based on leaked images of the actual software and Govt.filings from Tesla. Also, we could finally see a new paint color from Austin giga factory. Mar.1 will either make my comment way off or on point, praying for the latter. If this happens, place your order asap as prices will go up immediately when/if that happens.

 

[zoomer0056]

All Teslas now come With basic AP and TACC.

Autopilot is a group of features which includes TACC and autosteer. It is incorrect to say "AP and TACC" as TACC is one feature of AP. From the Model S manual:

 

[VoltWagon]

Wait until Mar. 1 “investor meeting” to find out what changes will be made as a big upgrade could be coming soon with new hardware called HW.4. Folks will say it’s more for those who are into FSD(full self driving) but it goes beyond that. With the potential “hopeful” update, HD radar in conjunction with new cameras may be added to the rear bumper and front headlight housings and mirrors. This would provide 360’ top down view, rear cross traffic alert and front pedestrians/car avoidance detection. This is all based on leaked images of the actual software and Govt.filings from Tesla. Also, we could finally see a new paint color from Austin giga factory. Mar.1 will either make my comment way off or on point, praying for the latter. If this happens, place your order asap as prices will go up immediately when/if that happens.

Those sound like great features (some of which I'm already used to on the ID.4, others I've heard of on other EVs). Also glad to hear that radar may be returning. Hopefully that will reduce the chances of phantom braking.

 

[HonchoNI]

I've driven only 2000 miles so far but never had phantom braking when not in autopilot (comes as standard on all Teslas). When in autopilot it is quite cautious so it will brake unnecessarily sometimes, but since you should be paying attention when using it, you can quickly disable it with a flick up of the stalk or pressing on the accelerator. Luckily my Tesla has never slammed on the bakes yet where I have not had time to react, it has always applied the brakes smoothly. Once it tried to swerve to avoid something that was not there that could have resulted in me hitting a kerb but since I was holding the steering wheel it was no problem.

 

[SageBrush]

Those sound like great features (some of which I'm already used to on the ID.4, others I've heard of on other EVs). Also glad to hear that radar may be returning. Hopefully that will reduce the chances of phantom braking.

That is my hope too.
I'm not sure how much phantom braking (PB) is connected to TACC (dynamic cruise control) and how much it is connected to AEB (Automatic Emergency Braking.) People who enable at least AP (basic autopilot) are getting both AEB and TACC so there is a lot of confusion as to which functions are associated with phantom braking.

At least one thread reported that phantom braking went away when AEB was turned off. I'm personally inclined to think that AEB is the main, if not only cause of PB but that is unproven. It is possible to enable TACC while AEB is off.

I don't doubt that Tesla will solve phantom braking eventually, so I think for those of us who do not want to risk the occurrence it becomes a matter of turning off those functions that may cause it until Tesla sorts it out. I will say that PB has been a problem a lot longer than I anticipated. I have my suspicions why that is so but they are highly speculative so I'll refrain from adding them to this post which is meant to be as factual as is possible on this topic.

Good luck ! And save your money for a Model Y. It really does beat the ID4 hands down.

 

[exxxviii]

Congratulations, you are lucky and got a good car and drive it in routes not prone to phantom braking. It is absolutely a problem for many others though.

Agree, but I don't think forum members have any sense of probability. Is it 10%, 30%, 60%??? Forums tend to amplify small occurrences as if they were universal.

 

[exxxviii]

Wow, thanks for the very rapid replies, everyone - much appreciated! And my apologies for my lack of Tesla Terminology knowledge. I'm learning a little about EAP, NOA, and FSD.

So smogne41, it sounds like you're saying all Teslas now have the EAP? And from what I read recently, the newer Model Y has offered a full self-driving option for $15,000 extra, but that feature has been recently recalled?

Anyway, both my 2017 Prius and my 2021 ID.4 have what they call "Adaptive Cruise Control" (ACC). So I think that's equivalent to EAP? And yes, ACC is extremely important to me. But I don't care about the other self-driving features. So if I buy a Model Y, it will be the 2023 "Plain Vanilla" Long Range version. But I'll buy it only if phantom braking is very rare when using cruise control.

The phantom braking reports sound equally scary to my ID.4's recall due to "sudden power loss". VW says it is just a software fix, but it sounds like it could take them a couple of months to offer the fix. In general, VW's software updates are pathetic so far.

There are several mini-features that get bundled into Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot...

1. Lane Departure Warning - if you start to drift out of your lane, your car will alert you
2. Lane Keep Assist - if you drift out of a lane, your car will nudge you back in
3. Lane Centering - your car will actively steer you in the middle of the lane
4. Traffic Aware Cruise Control - manage your speed, down to a stop.
5. Map-aware Cruise Control - adjust speed for curves based on GPS data
6. Automatic Lane Change - hit the blinker, and the car will change lanes
7. Automatic Overtake - car can automatically initiate an overtake of a slower car (2 lane changes)
8. Self driving stuff... - these are things like automatic entry and exit highways, stopping at stop signs and stop lights without cars in front of you, turning on city streets, etc.

Tesla's basic Autopilot is the combination (or branding) of 3-5. This manages the speed for you and adjusts for cars and objects in front of you. And it steers the car in the center of the lane.

Enhanced Autopilot adds #6 plus several other things (including navigating on and off highways).

I don't think Tesla does #7. And the other features of EAP and FSD are 8 and beyond.

 

[FirstInTown]

How often? I use TACC most often, the funtion that just follows the speed of the car in front while on cruise, because the AP steering option will only let you set the speed to 5 over the current speed limit and I like to go 6-7 over the limit but can't with Auto Steer turned on. (a limition of AP no one tells you about)

In a 4 hour, 2 lane road trip, I can expect 1-4 phantom braking experiences. Normally, 1 is so bad, our golden retriever will fall forward off the back seat. Lately, I've taken to just driving the car myself, no cruise or steering assist, as I never get phantom braking that way and trip is more enjoyable.

But hey, this is better than 1.5 years ago where FSDb would do minor slowdowns 1 time a minute when it first come out (45 events in a 40 mile trip at 60 mph).

 

[TarmacSurfer]

The events are rare. Tesla is aware of the concerns and has been actively working to improve the situation. I’ve had it happen a handful of times, none recent (as in “within the last six months). I use AP regularly.

As long as you have decent reflexes and don’t completely space out while on AP you’ll likely be able to intervene (stomp on the accelerator before getting rear-ended) if it ever happens. Of course then you get to deal with some irate moron thinking you’ve deliberately brake-checked them, but that’s another issue. I love the AP feature but… I’ll never completely trust it. 99% perhaps, but never 100%. It’s not a substitute for common sense, just a “nice to have” that automates a lot of driving monotony and associated fatigue / highway hypnosis.

 

[Spuzzz]

I’ve never had a phantom braking event. I use autopilot all the time because it’s fun. Internet forums have a negative selection bias. Phantom braking is possible, but I don’t think anyone here has an accurate sense of probability.

I mean if I go on a long trip, say 400-500 miles I usually encounter phantom braking once or twice. It’s not nearly as frequent or treacherous as the overly dramatic internet would make it sound. It’s not a full brake slam experience… its more of an unexpected slow down which is easily overridden with a tap to the accelerator. But if you have passengers they will wonder why you slowed down. It’s super overhyped on social media pages.

 

[Olle]

I have an FSD Y with 28k miles. Never had any phantom braking. In AP, FSD as well as TAC modes, the car gently slows down sometimes when it misinterprets a speed limit under highway as on highway, when sunlight blinds the cameras or when another vehicle is too quickly approaching from a side road. This has happened less and less frequently over two years of ownership.

 

[SkyDog]

I've had my MY for 1 year, about 11,000 miles, I use basic AP a lot and have never had phantom braking.