Phantom Braking

[COS Blue]

Apparently there is a new surge of complaints to the NHTSA. Likely due to the recent press, more people have decided to report their experiences as well.

Washington Post says:
Complaints to NHTSA can — as apparently occurred here — be more frequent as owners learn about the possibility of telling the government about safety problems with their car, so increases in complaints might not always be due to an increase in the rate of problems.

Also, this can't be right based on what I've read here... looks like someone else is wrong on the Internet?

Washington Post says:
Complaints of phantom braking involving Tesla vehicles also far surpass those for other automakers that also have advanced driver assistance but largely rely on radar-equipped systems.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/17/tesla-phantom-braking/

 

[Knightshade]

Apparently there is a new surge of complaints to the NHTSA.

Worth noting NHTSA does not do anything to verify these are from owners.

I've no doubt some are, but historically anytime such an issue has gotten press there's then been a flood of fake anti-tesla reports filed as well.

Allegedly 250 of the 354 complaints came in after the WaPo story in this case.


I cited to this last week too, the last time it was brought up.

But I know a few folks refuse to actually read anything others post here so maybe you missed it, here it is again:

Tesla report shows most negative NHTSA complaints are 'fake' and a tactic from 'detractors'

According to an email obtained by Electrek, Elon Musk shared with Tesla employees a report from last week that shows most NHTSA...

electrek.co

After a review of hundreds of Tesla customer complaints filed with NHTSA since 2016 through present day in 2018, I can confirm that at least two-thirds of them are fake

 

[ripstaur]

While we’re on the topic of recalls, there is a large article in today’s Washington Post about phantom braking problems with Tesla vehicles and the current NHSTA investigations into the issue. Seems unclear if this problem is related to sensitivity of the new Tesla Vision system vs the older radar sensors. Should be interesting to see how this gets resolved.

There's a follow-up today (Feb 17).

 

[ripstaur]

Worth noting NHTSA does not do anything to verify these are from owners.

I've no doubt some are, but historically anytime such an issue has gotten press there's then been a flood of fake anti-tesla reports filed as well.

Allegedly 250 of the 354 complaints came in after the WaPo story in this case.


I cited to this last week too, the last time it was brought up.

But I know a few folks refuse to actually read anything others post here so maybe you missed it, here it is again:

Tesla report shows most negative NHTSA complaints are 'fake' and a tactic from 'detractors'

According to an email obtained by Electrek, Elon Musk shared with Tesla employees a report from last week that shows most NHTSA...

electrek.co

I'd be interested to see what evidence you have that the reports are "fake." Phantom braking is not a fake problem. It has happened to me, probably 8 times in the past 6 months. I no longer use any auto-drive features at night, and won't until Tesla acknowledges and sends out a patch to fix the problem.

 

[Knightshade]

I'd be interested to see what evidence you have that the reports are "fake."

I just linked, in the post you quote, to evidence that the majority of all Tesla complaints to NHTSA were fake, for years.

If you're interested in the evidence- read it.

Phantom braking is not a fake problem.

And I never claimed it was.

In fact I literally said the opposite in the post you quoted

Worth noting NHTSA does not do anything to verify these are from owners.

I've no doubt some are

How are people this terrible at reading? Seriously?

 

[Ramphex]

False positives are, as I understand it, mainly an issue with world modelling and it has been a known problem for a long time in the AV space along with stuff like static object detection. The degree of issues between different brands, different models, and even model years is something I imagine the NHTSA would be looking into, and the manufacturer response to the problem is important.

Tesla vehicles might experience the issues more often because the systems are trying to do so much everywhere rather than focusing on a narrower set of functions, and more complexity tends to leave more room for problems. I would personally not be buying a vehicle that doesn't come with regular dumb cruise control, even great adaptive cruise isn't without its quirks that I'm not a fan of.

Seems like not offering regular dumb cruise control is shoehorning people into bad experiences. How about offering regular dumb cruise control and identifying which roads the system doesn't function well on, possibly alerting drivers that they're approaching a spot where L2 ADAS can create a bad experience?

How about building a three-layer system with L2 ADAS functional where it works well, L3 Traffic Jam pilot in slow-moving traffic, and regular dumb cruise control everywhere else? And then seamlessly integrate them with take-over warnings etc.


There are so many good ways to do this, I don't think we've scratched the surface yet.

I’m honestly down for a regular dumb cruise control and a toggle with “TACC (Beta)” in the settings

 

[COS Blue]

I literally just linked, in the post you quote, to evidence that the majority of all Tesla complaints to NHTSA were fake, for years.

The electrek.co article cited was basically Elon Musk himself declaring that they were fake. So keep that in mind when evaluating credibility.

Electrek’s Take

I am not sure if this is actually a “coordinated strategy” to attack Tesla since it appears that most of them can still be traced back to the same guy: Keef Leech.

In any case, Elon's declaration from 2018 does not convince me in the slightest that complaints made in 2022 are likely to be fake, and in fact this argument seems like a red herring. Someone once filed a bunch of fake reports to the NHTSA. Therefore we shouldn't pay any attention to any reports to the NHTSA.

 

[DrGriz]

'''

Allegedly 250 of the 354 complaints came in after the WaPo story in this case.

'''

Really. You are saying that 250 of the 354 complaints came in after the WaPo story which was written today, even though the investigation was announced yesterday using the 354 number. You are beyond belief.

 

[Knightshade]

Really. You are saying that 250 of the 354 complaints came in after the WaPo story which was written today,

No, it wasn't.

ANOTHER one was written today. Not the original one..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-phantom-braking/

That's from Feb. 2nd.

TODAYS story actually mentioned the surge after their original report so I guess you didn't actually read it huh?


I eagerly await your apology I strongly suspect won't be coming.

 

[COS Blue]

ripstaur said:
Phantom braking is not a fake problem.

And I never claimed it was.

In fact I literally said the opposite in the post you quoted

THE ACTUAL WORDS I WROTE said:
Worth noting NHTSA does not do anything to verify these are from owners.

I've no doubt some are

How are people this terrible at reading? Seriously?

"I've no doubt some are" [from owners] is not the opposite of "Phantom braking is not a fake problem."

 

[Knightshade]

The electrek.co article cited was basically Elon Musk himself declaring that they were fake. So keep that in mind when evaluating credibility.

Well, no it wasn't.

It was Elon posting the results of a report about it.

The link actually shows some charts and other data from the report, including examples of fake complaints.

Someone once filed a bunch of fake reports to the NHTSA. Therefore we shouldn't pay any attention to any reports to the NHTSA.

Not once.

The majority of all reports over a period of years


So, once again, it appears someone did not read the actual story before replying to it


I think there's a much larger issue with literacy than phantom braking at this point.

 

[DrGriz]

No, it wasn't.

ANOTHER one was written today. Not the original one..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-phantom-braking/

That's from Feb. 2nd.

TODAYS story actually mentioned the surge after their original report so I guess you didn't actually read it huh?


I eagerly await your apology I strongly suspect won't be coming.

Sorry. (Happy now?) You forgot to make reference to the original article in your post, And yes I read both but that doesn't mean a single one of those is fake as you implied. There are at least that many people who have posted complaints on PB in TMC and you have read them. You are calling them liars.

 

[DrGriz]

Boo-hoo @Knightshade. Are your feelings hurt? Is that why you downvote everyone who has a different opinion?

 

[COS Blue]

Well, no it wasn't.

It was Elon posting the results of a report about it.

The link actually shows some charts and other data from the report, including examples of fake complaints.

As best I can tell (and yes I did read the article), it was Elon posting the results of a report that he (or Tesla) wrote. With charts and other data, that he (or Tesla) provided.

So, once again, it appears someone did not read the actual story before replying to it


I think there's a much larger issue with literacy than phantom braking at this point.

Geeze man. Chill out. That kind of talk doesn't help your credibility.

 

[DrGriz]

I even commented on the original WaPo article in WaPo at the time it was written. Guess @Knightshade forgot to do his research before he accused me of not reading.

 

[Knightshade]

I even commented on the original WaPo article in WaPo at the time it was written. Guess @Knightshade forgot to do his research before he accused me of not reading.

It's weird you tried to call me a liar for saying there was a surge after the WaPo originally reported it because, according to you, the article was just published today.



Then when I pointed out the original reporting was over 2 weeks ago, you suddenly "knew all about it"


But of course, if you already knew about the Feb 2 story, why would you assume my pointing out most of the surge came AFTER the story was somehow talking about a different story from today?

That doesn't make any sense at all.


I get you're mad you got caught making a false accusation, but protip: When you find you're in a hole- stop digging.

 

[_Redshift_]

Just drove a Washington DC-Detroit round trip. Had several phantom breaking episodes along the way, including one that was quite severe and caused everything on the seat next to me to fall on the floor. Fortunately no one behind me for that one.

That‘s what I have experienced in my Model 3. Going 75 mph on a sunny afternoon on the freeway, 3 lanes in one direction. No other traffic, or shadows nearby. The braking was hard enough to throw me and my 3 passengers forward. Luckily no one was behind me at that time.

I have experienced the less scary scenario where the car slowed down from 70 to 55 abruptly, and it used to always happen at the same spot on the freeway near my home. I had gotten used to compensating for that. Now that seems to have gone away.

The harder braking issue still remains, though.

 

[garsie]

Phantom braking big issue for me. When in cruise control (not FSD) driving on divided highway and no other traffic sudden braking with marked deceleration (if someone behind me would certainly cause collision...even with no one else near me it is very shocking for vehicle to suddenly decelerate so markedly)...ironically with alert box on screen saying "cruise control will not brake"...except that it most certainly does. Noticed this much more on roads repaired with tar in cracks (even though lane markings recently repainted). Saw another post stating that turning off Automatic Braking will stop this. Will try on next highway drive. However, even with this activated it does not engage unless I am in cruise control on same road.

 

[Knightshade]

if someone behind me would certainly cause collision...

People keep saying this- and yet it never seems to happen.

Even the "surge" in NHTSA reports includes zero accidents.

even with no one else near me it is very shocking for vehicle to suddenly decelerate so markedly)...ironically with alert box on screen saying "cruise control will not brake"

Err... that alert happens when you have TACC on but your foot on the accelerator.... because the accelerator input overrides TACC.

 

[DrGriz]

It's weird you tried to call me a liar for saying there was a surge after the WaPo originally reported it because, according to you, the article was just published today.



Then when I pointed out the original reporting was over 2 weeks ago, you suddenly "knew all about it"


But of course, if you already knew about the Feb 2 story, why would you assume my pointing out most of the surge came AFTER the story was somehow talking about a different story from today?

That doesn't make any sense at all.


I get you're mad you got caught making a false accusation, but protip: When you find you're in a hole- stop digging.

Ok, let's cool it down. I did overreact because in the original post you didn't refer to the original article. And I never called you a liar.
I did know about it and here's a snip showing one of my many comments in the section from the article two weeks ago, just to save you the trouble.
And thanks for the tip. I can see you are a pro.