Phantom Braking

[Matias]

This is not exclusive to Tesla, it impacts all brands. It's inherent to active cruise control.

My AP1 Tesla very rarely does this. So I think that it is possible to create a TACC without PB.

How well does it stop for automatic emergency braking ?

Luckily I haven’t tested.

 

[COS Blue]

It is extremely easy to eliminate phantom braking by increasing the error on AEB.

But, if you want to reduce the possibility of AEB not kicking in when needed, you also increase phantom braking.

Totally agree. It's a difficult problem to solve -- brake every time you are supposed to, but never when you are not supposed to. In fact Tesla is not close to solving this problem. So I wish I had the option to just decide for myself when to perform emergency braking -- but still use cruise control.

 

[Knightshade]

1. Absence of evidence is not absence of effect
2. the question has never been whether it's caused accidents

That's weird, since a lot of the posts are people claiming it's dangerous and can cause an accident.

Once again it appears you proudly not reading 99% of the posts in the thread has caused you to reach a nonsense conclusion.

3. I long ago quit reading past the first line

And there it is again.

I do have to say it's remarkable how proud you are of working actively to remain ignorant.

 

[Dewg]

Totally agree. It's a difficult problem to solve -- brake every time you are supposed to, but never when you are not supposed to. In fact Tesla is not close to solving this problem. So I wish I had the option to just decide for myself when to perform emergency braking -- but still use cruise control.

I've seen many times where people tweet their suggestions or requests, tagging Elon, and he responds. Perhaps if enough people tweeted requesting old-school cruise control while PB is being worked on, and tagging Elon, perhaps he may look into it.

Otherwise, it's their company and product. If Elon doesn't want to provide it, we don't get it.

 

[Knightshade]

Totally agree. It's a difficult problem to solve -- brake every time you are supposed to, but never when you are not supposed to. In fact Tesla is not close to solving this problem. So I wish I had the option to just decide for myself when to perform emergency braking -- but still use cruise control.

Every study I've ever seen on the impact of AEB existing is that it reduces accident rates very significantly.

Seems worth an occasional minor slowdown annoyance that does not cause accidents.

 

[2101Guy]

Just drove a Washington DC-Detroit round trip. Had several phantom breaking episodes along the way, including one that was quite severe and caused everything on the seat next to me to fall on the floor. Fortunately no one behind me for that one.

This cant be. Because a guy on the internet used a gforce meter and found out that the brake pedal wasnt going down during phantom braking and that the g forces weren't 10x gravity, thus, its driver error each time.

 

[Dewg]

We know that COVID shutdowns affected tons of companies, and impacted global supplies and logistics - and Elon was famously attacking California legislators over mandates in his Fremont factory.

Could some of the massive upticks in PB issues be due to Tesla cutting corners after the pandemic started? Saving money by cutting quality of the cameras, or improper installation due to significantly reduced manpower in the factories?

I would imagine the cameras have to be good quality, and placed precisely for the system to work. I can hold onto the driver side turn-signal camera on my 2021 MY and wiggle it a little (1-2 mm of movement).

So my question is: Is this a hardware issue, a software issue, or a combination of both?

 

[EVNow]

Luckily I haven’t tested.

Yes, you are lucky and hopefully your luck holds. Not sure AP1 AEB is all that good.

ps :

A lot of people don't realize there is no "free lunch". We are looking at 2 metrics.

AEB : False Positives & False Negatives.

Phantom braking = False Positives for AEB.

If you reduce False Negatives i.e. AEB not kicking in where it should (aka Tesla hitting stuff), False Positives go up. While it is obviously possible to reduce both - that is what it means to optimize and improve NN - it takes a long time. But I'd bet, AP1 has higher False Negatives, if it has lower False Positives.

Totally agree. It's a difficult problem to solve -- brake every time you are supposed to, but never when you are not supposed to. In fact Tesla is not close to solving this problem. So I wish I had the option to just decide for myself when to perform emergency braking -- but still use cruise control.

Not sure NHTSA and insurance companies like that. Your insurance is based on AEB being available and if you remove it as the base option, it should be a different premium.

Ofcourse, I'm not sure how many would want more chances of AEB not kicking in for lower phantom braking. Personally I hardly ever face phantom braking, so I prefer to have AEB.

 

[Knightshade]

The cameras are largely the same ones dating back to 2016 (they have a different color filter now, but are otherwise physically the same camera, and the filter change dates back to 2018). They're not especially expensive or anything at this point- this is HW originally developed in 2014.

An entirely-different-camera change would've been noticed both in the parts catalog and by the various SW folks like Green.

So no- it's not the cameras....

The only significant HW change that could be involved here is the removal of radar in May 2021.

 

[Dewg]

I was taught to keep a car length per 10MPH. I think a lot of these issues are because people just don't keep safe follow distances anymore. Everyone rides everyone else's ass. 2 car lengths at 80MPH on the freeway just isn't enough time to stop. We'd have less AEB issues/needs if people just drove more defensively.

 

[2101Guy]

is it remotely possible, that the same guy who has been wrong about a number of things(including multiple timelines)...is wrong about no lidar/no radar/ "vision only is the best solution"? Is it remotely possible he's wrong on this one?
I mean, I realize to some he can never ever be wrong...but is it possible?

 

[sleepydoc]

We know that COVID shutdowns affected tons of companies, and impacted global supplies and logistics - and Elon was famously attacking California legislators over mandates in his Fremont factory.

Could some of the massive upticks in PB issues be due to Tesla cutting corners after the pandemic started? Saving money by cutting quality of the cameras, or improper installation due to significantly reduced manpower in the factories?

I would imagine the cameras have to be good quality, and placed precisely for the system to work. I can hold onto the driver side turn-signal camera on my 2021 MY and wiggle it a little (1-2 mm of movement).

So my question is: Is this a hardware issue, a software issue, or a combination of both?

I would tend to say primarily/only software, if for no other reason than all of the reports of it waxing and waning in severity with updates.

The other moving target is sales - Tesla has had a huge increase in sales, so even with no changes one would expect an increase in the number of complaints if not the rate. I still go back to the fundamental comparison of industry standard for adaptive cruise. You see scattered complaints but every other person I’ve talked to that’s used non-Tesla adaptive cruise has no phantom braking or phantom slowing. That’s a pretty marked difference.

Finally there’s the issue of variability within the brand - just based on reports here there seems to be a large degree of variability. It’s not clear what the cause is but I don’t think it’s made up.

 

[Knightshade]

I still go back to the fundamental comparison of industry standard for adaptive cruise. You see scattered complaints but every other person I’ve talked to that’s used non-Tesla adaptive cruise has no phantom braking or phantom slowing.

Once again it appears your main problem is refusing to actually read others posts.

Here's a guy reporting PB on two other brands of cars, in this very thread, just yesterday:

" I should NEVER happent." ???? It happend just yesterday on two of my friends one is a Volvo the other one is a Mercedes

 

[ripstaur]

Do you have evidence?

It has happened to me, several times. I have pretty much stopped using any autodrive at night.

 

[sleepydoc]

Once again it appears your main problem is refusing to actually read others posts.

How tiresome you are. Read my post again. You have yet again managed to post without adding anything new, unconsidered or unaccounted for

 

[ripstaur]

For everything else, people post Tesla videos. Why not for this one?

I'd be happy to report a video, but it happens too quickly and too randomly to catch in a video. What happens to me is this: Usually at night, sometimes when passing an exit, sometimes for no apparent reason, once when passing a cop with the blue lights going on the shoulder...suddenly the brakes are applied; I'm guessing just regen braking, but it takes you from 70 to 30 in a heartbeat. I've been lucky that I didn't have anyone tailgating me at the time. Once I noticed that the speed limit indicator, which had been showing a 55 sign, suddenly changed to 30, then changed back after the incident. I have stopped using autodrive at night. I haven't seen anything in any recent downloads that addressed the problem.

 

[Knightshade]

How tiresome you are.

if you're tired of being proven wrong, with sources, maybe you ought try being wrong less often?

Protip: Actually reading the entirety of posts to which you are replying would go a long way here. I know you've repeatedly discounted this idea as too much work, but give it a shot!



BTW, fun link for the couple folks who were touting how great Subarus safety systems are:

10 Car Models With The Most Accidents - Subaru Now Has Three Of The Top 5

An updated report from Insurify reveals the 10 cars with the most accidents. The Subaru Crosstrek, Subaru WRX, and Subaru WRX STI, and now Impreza are in the top 5 models.

www.torquenews.com

Apparently 3 out of the top 5 models in at-fault accidents are now Subarus.


Toyota, Honda, and Mazda each make an appearance in the top 10 as well.

Tesla of course does not.

 

[Dewg]

Finally there’s the issue of variability within the brand - just based on reports here there seems to be a large degree of variability. It’s not clear what the cause is but I don’t think it’s made up.

This one has me curious too. If it's just software, and not hardware as you suggest, then I'd expect everyone to experience the same PBs. However, there are people who rarely have PBs, or very mild PBs, and other who have extreme PBs and frequent PBs. Assuming they are on the same version of the software, it leads us logically to a few possibilities:

1) The road conditions are not the same. This can be tested by having identical models with the same software version drive the same roads at the same time/conditions. If they have different PBs, then I'd argue there must be a hardware component.

2) Hardware conditions are not the same. This can be tested by having identical models with the same software version drive similar roads with various degrees of cleanliness. Do PBs increase, decrease, or stay the same when there is buildup of grime/dirt on cameras, windows, and ultrasonic sensors?

3) Lighting conditions are not the same. This can be tested by having someone drive the same route with the same software version and the same cleanliness at different times of day and different weather conditions. Do PBs increase, decrease, or stay the same on a bright, sunny day at high-noon? How about sunset? How about nighttime? How about a cloudy day?

I would love to find another FSB Beta user with a 2021 MY around Orange County, CA so we can do some testing like this.

 

[Knightshade]

I'd be happy to report a video, but it happens too quickly and too randomly to catch in a video.

This doesn't make any sense.

The car is always recording. You simply need to save the relevant clip, which you have plenty of time to do in the minutes after it happens.

What happens to me is this: Usually at night, sometimes when passing an exit, sometimes for no apparent reason, once when passing a cop with the blue lights going on the shoulder...suddenly the brakes are applied;

Not only are 2 of those 3 not phantom braking, they're actually explicitly called out in the manual as something that's supposed to happen.

 

[COS Blue]

Your insurance is based on AEB being available and if you remove it as the base option, it should be a different premium.

Yes, the premium should go down if Tesla AEB removed