Phantom Braking

[OncomingStorm]

I've put 2500+ miles on my 22 MYP, prob 40% highway the rest city and probably 80% on autopilot... I've experienced some incorrect breaking but nothing that would call "phantom" as every instance had a clear reason, usually someone coming to close to the center lane line or an errant turn single or break light (wound up behind some guy on the highway that had is break lights on while continuing to drive, autopilot did NOT like that haha). maybe its my background in IT/software dev but if you pay attention for 5 mins you can easily learn what the car is going to react to and thus when to take over or simply not use AP and frankly if your using AP outside of its intended use, which is basically highways only as i understand it, you have no right to complain about anything lol. in fact the only instance in which i experienced a breaking event that dropped my speed more than 3-5mph was one that was explicitly pointed out as a "do not do this!" kind of thing lol.

I honestly think 80% of these complains are either the driver was not paying attention and therefore didn't see the input that caused the breaking event so to them it "happend for no reason" or they are simply not using AP when it's appropriate and are expecting it to do something its not really designed for.

not to say errors have never happend, i'm sure they have and i would fully expect edge cases where the system would fail, but my experience (and a couple friends of mine that drive M3's) have been nothing short of excellent.

 

[Sporty]

This.
Happens.
To.
Every.
Brand.

Again two wrongs don’t make a right. Are we saying Telsa doesn’t need to fix the phantom breaking problem because other cars have their own issues?

 

[watsongrg]

I call bullshit. Especially the acceleration part. It just doesn’t to that.

Yes it does. Especially when I try to override the event, to save from being rear ended, by pushing on the go-pedal.

 

[watsongrg]

9

I call bullshit. Especially the acceleration part. It just doesn’t to that.

Yes, it does. Especially trying to override the surprise braking event, to avoid getting rear ended or losing control, by pushing the go pedal .

You can’t imagine how hard it slammed on the brakes, for no reason.

 

[Raurele]

9


Yes, it does. Especially trying to override the surprise braking event, to avoid getting rear ended or losing control, by pushing the go pedal .

You can’t imagine how hard it slammed on the brakes, for no reason.

Oh, so now the car has too much acceleration when you press the gas to override? Get another car. So over these complaints. Your foot should ALWAYS be at the pedal ready to take over. Same as your hands always ready to take over steering if someone tries cutting you off, or another reason.

 

[Raurele]

I've put 2500+ miles on my 22 MYP, prob 40% highway the rest city and probably 80% on autopilot... I've experienced some incorrect breaking but nothing that would call "phantom" as every instance had a clear reason, usually someone coming to close to the center lane line or an errant turn single or break light (wound up behind some guy on the highway that had is break lights on while continuing to drive, autopilot did NOT like that haha). maybe its my background in IT/software dev but if you pay attention for 5 mins you can easily learn what the car is going to react to and thus when to take over or simply not use AP and frankly if your using AP outside of its intended use, which is basically highways only as i understand it, you have no right to complain about anything lol. in fact the only instance in which i experienced a breaking event that dropped my speed more than 3-5mph was one that was explicitly pointed out as a "do not do this!" kind of thing lol.

I honestly think 80% of these complains are either the driver was not paying attention and therefore didn't see the input that caused the breaking event so to them it "happend for no reason" or they are simply not using AP when it's appropriate and are expecting it to do something its not really designed for.

not to say errors have never happend, i'm sure they have and i would fully expect edge cases where the system would fail, but my experience (and a couple friends of mine that drive M3's) have been nothing short of excellent.

I’m with you. I swear the people that complain the loudest, are the biggest morons in vehicles. Get a civic if you can’t adjust to a new car with new, evolving tech.

 

[enemji]

Yes. All the accounts of phantom braking we've been hearing about here and elsewhere. That IS evidence.

For everything else, people post Tesla videos. Why not for this one?

 

[Bouba]

When I got a Volvo it was my first adaptive cruise control and a real game changer for me...in fact it led to my insistence that from then on I would get the most technological car available....which led to getting a Tesla.
The Volvo had no phantom braking...it would simply stop working...usually as soon as there was a car in front..in fact it was so unreliable that I gave up using it permanently. The Volvo dealer couldn’t fix it despite charging me thousands to search for the problem.
And as for reliable cameras...Volvo cameras only work in winter..

 

[BDC62]

I think a lot of differences we are experiencing is based on the conditions of roads across the country. I have a 2020 MYP that has radar. Forbthe first roughly 20,000 miles, pre-beta, I never had phantom braking episodes on rural highways, and only every couple of months on interstates where there would be an overpass visible at the top of a small hill. However since getting the FSD Beta and moving over to the visual system, at least in the part of Florida where I live, driving on old rural highways can be a nightmare with the speed dropping 4 to 6 mph a dozen times or more in one mile. I've also noticed on new stretches of rural highways phantom braking is nearly non-existent.

Since we don't have to put salt and chemicals on roads here, they often go for many years without getting a fresh coat of pavement. And many of these roads are much lighter colored. When a road ages, slight dips can form over the years, and these dips tend to be darker than surrounding pavement because the dips tend to knock off slight bits of oil from some vehicles. Or, sometimes for minor road repairs bits of tar will be placed on a road. I've noticed the new visual system slows whenever it sees practically anything on a road that is darker than the surrounding pavement. Yesterday phantom braking slowed nearly 10 mph due skid marks. This trace of rubber on a lightly colored pavement is all it takes. And of course tree shadows are further magnified on a lighter colored highway. And bumps, dips, and ripples on older roads can get even more interesting when they start casting their own shadows as sunset approaches!

If you never experienced this phenomenon, chances are you live in an area with newer, darker colored pavement, have very few trees near the road, have no dips in the road, etc. But the from what I've seen, the phantom braking is predominantly a function of the condition of the road you are on.

 

[_jal_]

If all these other brands did this all the time, how come in 4 years of driving ACC cruise systems, I never knew this was a problem until we got a Tesla? Sure just a person's experience but I didn't even know it was a thing until got the X. And it reminds us all the time of this deficiency.

We've had two Outbacks over nearly six years, both with their TACC package. We have never had this happen on either of them. That is not an exaggeration. My S will do it at least once a day over 30ish miles of commuting. Sometimes because it thinks there's a stoplight on the highway. Sometimes it thinks the truck two lanes over is trying to change lanes into me. But usually it happens for no discernible reason at all.

And I would say that it has gotten worse since I started using FSD Beta. Sometimes it's so bad I just drive manually because it gets so frustrating. I never remember doing that over the prior 5 years.

 

[linux-works]

Phantom Braking is real and out of control.
Last week driving down interstate TACC on. Nothing near me. Relaxed happy enjoying the car…….WHAM!
it slammed on the damn brakes so hard my wife and I were pushed into our Inertial reel locked seated belts so hard my hands came off the steering wheel and our heads were thrown forward. Almost instantly the brakes released, the car surges forward and out heads are flung back. A nerve was pinched in my neck during that whiplash and now my right shoulder muscle has been tensed up for days.
Absolute bullsh!t.

guess what? It happened again today.
This crap system needs to be fixed, auto braking disabled, or pulled off the market.
How can ANYBODY think this is OK?

Teslas are braking in response to imagined road obstacles

The phenomenon is called "phantom braking," and it's been an issue since October.

www.protocol.com

I truly believe that if we add more intelligence and shared knowledge, this can be minimized.

I'm talking about v2x. vehicle to anything radio comms. imagine a series of cars that have this and each actually has a different brain (brands) and so their code and object ID algorithm is slightly or even quite different - but suppose 2 or 3 of them tell the 'locale' that they think they see stuff in the road and we should avoid it. but the rest of the cars drive THRU that 'bad' area and dont hit anything and they report it 'to the air' (radio). the next ones to be behind hear this and they DONT phantom break because of special knowledge that was passed on.

tesla refused to admit this is an aid that would help. they make zero progress or talk about v2x. if elon is so smart, where is the v2x work? we have so many teslas in the bay area, its very common that I have one behind me and even along side me and in front of me. 50% chance in the bay area that I'm almost surrounded by tesla cars. and yet, they dont talk to each other. so STUPID. elon is smart? really? and yet he totally ignores this amazing tech and refuses to further it?

truth be told, no one is making progress on this ;( very sad. it makes so much sense but no one is doing it and even progress in labs is slow.

but it makes SO much sense. and we need this. its one more dimension that will help this whole thing work. (we need active roads too, but that's for another thread)

 

[linux-works]

How about some praise for appropriate braking? Two days ago, I was in heavy traffic after dark. My Y started braking and I took control only to realize that it had seen a jaywalker dressing in dark clothing before I had seen him. That is not the only time similar situations have happened lately. I think we are seeing commendable progress.

completely canceled out by all the negative progress.

for this to WORK, it has to be lots of nines. this is not fb or twitter where software can be sloppy and 'oh well!' no one gets hurt. this - people get hurt if you write the software poorly. stakes are high.

if you cant get enough nines, dont even try to play. that's my current pov given these data points that I've experienced and read about from others. this is half baked and should be recalled. 2 years of this and I've had very minimal PB events. I almost bragged a few times how good it was (based on the fact that bay area is ground zero and if we cant map THIS area well, we SHOULD just give up). but it seems that even shared info is not enough and PB happened to me recently and I have not updated my car in years (literally 2 years now of ignoring updates). so there's no reason for my car to start pulling this crap, and yet, it did just yesterday, in fact. el camino, santa clara, well traveled, teslas to the left, right front and rear of me. and still the brakes got slammed on for no reason.

maybe its ioniq5 time or that other kia thing. I'm watching the reviews now and getting ready to make the mental transition away from tesla and say goodbye forevever. I've had enough and I'm convinced its never getting better, only worse, from now on. I want out.

I really LIKE the body style of the model 3 from the outside, though. I'll miss that a lot. I wont miss the interior (hate it) but I do think the m3 is the only 'normal' looking electric out there (Y is also ok but m3 looks better). they really did get that part right. so much else wrong, but I'll miss the look of my m3 as I walk up to it. (I wont miss standing there for a full 30 seconds fighting with my phone so that the car will LET ME THE HELL IN. sigh. really tired of fighting with keyless entry, too. so much wrong with this car. sigh.)

 

[qdeathstar]

That CR rating is from 2020 and was before phantom breaking was a thing for me. In fact AP was good then. Impressive even. Since getting some update (likely vision-only) it’s no longer good.

I’ve not had other cars phantom brake on me when using adaptive cruise control. (They don’t steer… just go the set speed with a following distance if someone happens to be in front). My current M3 experience is below what my many years old bmw used to do.

I really don’t see to a big a difference between vision and radar. I really feel like the difference is psychological.

 

[OncomingStorm]

I think a lot of differences we are experiencing is based on the conditions of roads across the country. I have a 2020 MYP that has radar. Forbthe first roughly 20,000 miles, pre-beta, I never had phantom braking episodes on rural highways, and only every couple of months on interstates where there would be an overpass visible at the top of a small hill. However since getting the FSD Beta and moving over to the visual system, at least in the part of Florida where I live, driving on old rural highways can be a nightmare with the speed dropping 4 to 6 mph a dozen times or more in one mile. I've also noticed on new stretches of rural highways phantom braking is nearly non-existent.

Since we don't have to put salt and chemicals on roads here, they often go for many years without getting a fresh coat of pavement. And many of these roads are much lighter colored. When a road ages, slight dips can form over the years, and these dips tend to be darker than surrounding pavement because the dips tend to knock off slight bits of oil from some vehicles. Or, sometimes for minor road repairs bits of tar will be placed on a road. I've noticed the new visual system slows whenever it sees practically anything on a road that is darker than the surrounding pavement. Yesterday phantom braking slowed nearly 10 mph due skid marks. This trace of rubber on a lightly colored pavement is all it takes. And of course tree shadows are further magnified on a lighter colored highway. And bumps, dips, and ripples on older roads can get even more interesting when they start casting their own shadows as sunset approaches!

If you never experienced this phenomenon, chances are you live in an area with newer, darker colored pavement, have very few trees near the road, have no dips in the road, etc. But the from what I've seen, the phantom braking is predominantly a function of the condition of the road you are on.

this kind of thing is always interesting to me. in my limited experience i've been able to use autopilot in places i 100% thought i would not be able to. i've used it going down snow / slush / salt covered roads, hell 2 tracks in some cases, as long as it can see the the lane lines every so often it handled far better than i would have expected. and the roads in Michigan and like some of the worst in the country, all our roads are multicolored, shattered into a million pieces and patched up, so there are dozens of random tar lines running in every direction. there are potholes everywhere and our lane lines are faded and missing more often than not and still it preforms better than expected. i'm not saying your not experiencing what your claiming, i just think it has to be something more than shadows. we have lots of trees in MI so its pretty common if your driving in the morning or at night to have the sun behind a row of trees causing thousands of shadow lines on the road and AP never blinks in those situations. again in my experience.

 

[Knightshade]

Again two wrongs don’t make a right. Are we saying Telsa doesn’t need to fix the phantom breaking problem because other cars have their own issues?

There's no "fix" for the problem though.

It's why every brand has the problem

Every time someone has posted "Well I owned brand X and IT never did phantom braking" it took all of 30 seconds for me to find people complaining of phantom braking on the very brand they insist doesn't do it.


Each company can mitigate the issue to various degrees, but there's no reasonable way to "fix" it- it's inherent to the nature of these types of systems


And as pointed out to you, again with actual available data instead of "This one guy said" anecdotes, Teslas performance is better than many other brands, in this, and basically every other area of actual capability and performance for driver aids and safety.

 

[OncomingStorm]

completely canceled out by all the negative progress.

for this to WORK, it has to be lots of nines. this is not fb or twitter where software can be sloppy and 'oh well!' no one gets hurt. this - people get hurt if you write the software poorly. stakes are high.

if you cant get enough nines, dont even try to play. that's my current pov given these data points that I've experienced and read about from others. this is half baked and should be recalled. 2 years of this and I've had very minimal PB events. I almost bragged a few times how good it was (based on the fact that bay area is ground zero and if we cant map THIS area well, we SHOULD just give up). but it seems that even shared info is not enough and PB happened to me recently and I have not updated my car in years (literally 2 years now of ignoring updates). so there's no reason for my car to start pulling this crap, and yet, it did just yesterday, in fact. el camino, santa clara, well traveled, teslas to the left, right front and rear of me. and still the brakes got slammed on for no reason.

maybe its ioniq5 time or that other kia thing. I'm watching the reviews now and getting ready to make the mental transition away from tesla and say goodbye forevever. I've had enough and I'm convinced its never getting better, only worse, from now on. I want out.

I really LIKE the body style of the model 3 from the outside, though. I'll miss that a lot. I wont miss the interior (hate it) but I do think the m3 is the only 'normal' looking electric out there (Y is also ok but m3 looks better). they really did get that part right. so much else wrong, but I'll miss the look of my m3 as I walk up to it. (I wont miss standing there for a full 30 seconds fighting with my phone so that the car will LET ME THE HELL IN. sigh. really tired of fighting with keyless entry, too. so much wrong with this car. sigh.)

no offence intended here but if you have not updated your software in 2 years, yeah it wont get any better. I can't say for sure how tesla propagates changes to the cars (whether the AI is completely unchanged without software updates i cannot say as there could be a "logic db" that gets updated dynamically and you could still see changes as time goes on). but generally speaking refusing to install updates is going to skew your experience vs everyone else so your input is going to be very unique and not always on par with the general state of things, plus its kind of a safety risk imo. also, updating your car would likely fix your keyless entry problem lol... i've never had to wait at all, by the time my hand touches the door its unlocked minus one time where an update on my phone cause it to need to be re-paired with the car, but thats not tesla's fault obv.

 

[Knightshade]

no offence intended here but if you have not updated your software in 2 years, yeah it wont get any better.

Yup.

This is another case of someone being SUPER MAD AT TESLA for what is obviously user error.

I can't say for sure how tesla propagates changes to the cars (whether the AI is completely unchanged without software updates i cannot say as there could be a "logic db" that gets updated dynamically and you could still see changes as time goes on).

Maps get updated independently of vehicle firmware, but that's it.

Actual driving code only changes with firmware updates.

Which this guy hasn't done in 2 years.

 

[OncomingStorm]

Yup.

This is another case of someone being SUPER MAD AT TESLA for what is obviously user error.




Maps get updated independently of vehicle firmware, but that's it.

Actual driving code only changes with firmware updates.

Which this guy hasn't done in 2 years.

reminds me of my help desk days of trying to tell people why their 15 year old computer wont run the latest version of XXX and being yelled at for it lol. i would hate to be on Tesla's support team haha.

 

[2101Guy]

completely canceled out by all the negative progress.

for this to WORK, it has to be lots of nines. this is not fb or twitter where software can be sloppy and 'oh well!' no one gets hurt. this - people get hurt if you write the software poorly. stakes are high.

if you cant get enough nines, dont even try to play. that's my current pov given these data points that I've experienced and read about from others. this is half baked and should be recalled. 2 years of this and I've had very minimal PB events. I almost bragged a few times how good it was (based on the fact that bay area is ground zero and if we cant map THIS area well, we SHOULD just give up). but it seems that even shared info is not enough and PB happened to me recently and I have not updated my car in years (literally 2 years now of ignoring updates). so there's no reason for my car to start pulling this crap, and yet, it did just yesterday, in fact. el camino, santa clara, well traveled, teslas to the left, right front and rear of me. and still the brakes got slammed on for no reason.

maybe its ioniq5 time or that other kia thing. I'm watching the reviews now and getting ready to make the mental transition away from tesla and say goodbye forevever. I've had enough and I'm convinced its never getting better, only worse, from now on. I want out.

I really LIKE the body style of the model 3 from the outside, though. I'll miss that a lot. I wont miss the interior (hate it) but I do think the m3 is the only 'normal' looking electric out there (Y is also ok but m3 looks better). they really did get that part right. so much else wrong, but I'll miss the look of my m3 as I walk up to it. (I wont miss standing there for a full 30 seconds fighting with my phone so that the car will LET ME THE HELL IN. sigh. really tired of fighting with keyless entry, too. so much wrong with this car. sigh.)

Speaking of ioniq 5 and driver assist (no such thing as FULL self driving capabilities today..nor tomorrow)..you might be interested in this video overall, but particularly what is stated about Hyundai's driver assist system vs Tesla's driver assist system at the 27:27 mark here

Note: The commentary along that video isnt all 100% fawning over Tesla. So for those who know who you are: cue up the "Edmunds is owned by big oil, they are shorting the stock, they are biased against tesla, blah blah blah" replies typically applied to any source not 100% promoting Elon and TEsla

 

[Knightshade]

LOL at Edmunds.

Hilariously at 27:27 they outright lie claiming they have issues in places Tesla claims the system should work... and among those he cites are construction zones.

Which the manual has multiple warnings to NOT use the system in at all.