Phantom Braking

[Xdama]

I've noted this before but I will again: Tesla HAS implemented dumb cruise control and exists in the software that ships today, because early Model 3s were available without TACC. I think precious few buyers actually opted for that configuration, but it was out there. So, I can't speak for the Y, but I suspect it would be trivial to offer it as a stop-gap on the 3 until this all blows over. Of course, the optics of "admitting defeat" and rolling out dumb cruise control wouldn't be great for them, but... not my problem.

I may be incorrect but I believe I read somewhere that if a new car is fitted with cruise control now then it MUST be adaptive cruise. Consequently I don't think it feasible (unfortunately) for Tesla to change it to "dumb" cruise. At least within the EU & UK (as we have followed this too)
Big brother (ie the nanny state) wants all control taken from the individual in all walks of life. No one is to have common sense now or in the future as Nanny will take care of it. An unfortunate consequence of the prevalence of the "I'm going to sue you" road we have joyfully charged down headlong!

 

[OncomingStorm]

the argument that Tesla's have more phantom breaking than other brands is moot imho. its like saying... "My calculator never crashes, why does my computer? it's a bug that they need to fix immediately!!!!" your comparing 2 completely different things. yes i know functionally they do the same thing but they are very much not the same thing.

and yes i wish my tesla never erroneously braked but i'll take a little random braking along with the many many other benefits over any of the competition

 

[Chris_1856]

I've been happy with it -- to a point. But the phantom braking is really annoying.

There is one stretch of road on the way home, there is one hill -- so it's not a straight line-of-sight to the light on either end of the road... the car will give the message that in 700 FT it will stop for the light -- it does this 6 or 7 times before I'm even a block away from either light. Doesn't happen anywhere else I drive.

More and more I drive without AP because the car drives so erratically.

 

[AndreP]

the argument that Tesla's have more phantom breaking than other brands is moot imho. its like saying... "My calculator never crashes, why does my computer? it's a bug that they need to fix immediately!!!!" your comparing 2 completely different things. yes i know functionally they do the same thing but they are very much not the same thing.

and yes i wish my tesla never erroneously braked but i'll take a little random braking along with the many many other benefits over any of the competition

I don't know if the comparison is even necessary for most. If someone buys a BMW and is unhappy with the product, I'm not sure they'd feel much consolation knowing that other people on Tesla forums might be more or less happy with their product. However it might influence their buying decisions going forward.

But many people don't churn through vehicles at a quick pace and rather buy with the intent of owning for 10-15-20 years, so I think most are just concerned with the vehicle they bought.

 

[SalisburySam]

Maybe we who experience phantom braking should reverse our thinking on the topic…maybe it’s a feature, a bit like shortened battery life on iPhones after certain software updates. Consider the upside: less time on the iPhone, less time grazing social media, less time with your close personal Netflix relationship, and so on. More opportunity to react with humanity around us. All good, right?

So to extend that clearly unassailable logic, assume we’re all on a Tesla transport vessel to Mars. In the openness of space enroute with very few obstructions of any kind in our path (save the occasional comet or space junk), we experience a massive jolt of phantom braking reducing our speed in a fraction of a minute from oh say 25,000mph to about 16,000mph. The 457 passengers and pets all have a simultaneous WTF moment, each (including the pets) submitting bug reports to TeslaFleet Command, massive hue and cry (okay, whining) about that last software update, the dangerousness of the feature, what happens to the vessel tailgating us 10,000 miles to our rear but on the same course, we’re all gonna die, etc., etc. The National Intersteller Transportation Safety Agency (NITSA) gets notified, issues a new requirement, and we have to enter a holding pattern above Mars to have software patches applied prior to landing. We learn current and patched software has and is consider Beta by the manufacturer. And on and on. This is not what we paid for and are asking when this will be fixed.

Come to learn after finally landing that our phantom braking experience was an appropriate vessel response to invisible tractor beams from an alien life force, so it’s all good and our anger turns to remorse for our negative actions and praise for Tesla’s incredible software design team.

Or not.

 

[Xdama]

But many people don't churn through vehicles at a quick pace and rather buy with the intent of owning for 10-15-20 years, so I think most are just concerned with the vehicle they bought.

Can tell you aren’t from UK with that period of time. Most change their cars 3-4yrs even sooner in a lot of cases, especially in the Tesla price bracket

 

[ohmman]

Moderator Note: @Knightshade and @sleepydoc, please get a room or I can find one for you.

 

[sleepydoc]

the argument that Tesla's have more phantom breaking than other brands is moot imho. its like saying... "My calculator never crashes, why does my computer? it's a bug that they need to fix immediately!!!!" your comparing 2 completely different things. yes i know functionally they do the same thing but they are very much not the same thing.

and yes i wish my tesla never erroneously braked but i'll take a little random braking along with the many many other benefits over any of the competition

Sorry, this argument is rubbish, IMO. Teslas are cars, Just like Chevys and Fords and Subarus and Toyotas and they are designed to do the same thing. How they accomplish that task may be quite different ‘under the hood’ but it doesn’t matter. Your argument is akin to saying ‘the car has a flat six engine. It’s very different from the V8 so you can’t compare them.’

Other people have said ‘Tesla does things differently.’ Ok. But does it work. Different is only better if it’s better. If it doesn’t work then it’s worse and there’s no point.

 

[Lpleiss]

If you drive on 2-lane highways at night, be prepared for lots of phantom breaking and forward collision warning alarms. I was even getting them with TACC turned off and me driving the car. I have a 2018 Model 3 and it used to be great, so I know it can work, but some software update along the way has made that particular situation miserable.

 

[Dewg]

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Sorry, this argument is rubbish, IMO. Teslas are cars, Just like Chevys and Fords and Subarus and Toyotas and they are designed to do the same thing. How they accomplish that task may be quite different ‘under the hood’ but it doesn’t matter. Your argument is akin to saying ‘the car has a flat six engine. It’s very different from the V8 so you can’t compare them.’

Other people have said ‘Tesla does things differently.’ Ok. But does it work. Different is only better if it’s better. If it doesn’t work then it’s worse and there’s no point.

The argument is okay with FSD Beta as it is a entirely different beast. So it's not really relevant now, but when the single stack is released its going to be a pretty strong argument. Even now I'd say the FSD Beta testers are adding noise to this thread by talking about their experiences without being careful about what aspects of it are Tesla Vision and what aspects are FSD Beta.

That argument doesn't work with the released TACC/AP as its not really the case. The problem when it applies to TACC/AP is a LOT of customers including me would rather have a rock solid TACC experience than a phantom braking prone AP experience.

When I traded in my 2015 Model S with AP1 for a 2018 Model 3 I did so knowing all the complaints about AP2 at the time. It didn't take very long for me to realize AP2 at the time was subpar based entirely on my own behind the wheel experience. But, like many other owners I felt like it was just a matter of time before it match parity and improved upon it.

What I've seen with my experience with my Model 3 is all the EAP/FSD features lack the kind of performance I expect out of them. By far the best performing feature is Auto-Lane change, but even it messes up from time to time. It's also the first feature to go when it begins to rain, and its not surprising as the water forms a bubble on the lens and the whole image bounces around.

Now I don't mind bugs/issues as long as I feel like the manufacture is aware of them, and is fixing them.

The issue with Tesla is they have no feedback mechanism for reporting issue, and bugs. I'm of the firm belief that this PB would have never gotten the media attention if customers felt like Tesla was responding to them, and was in the process of fixing the issues.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

There are positives and negatives.

Positives:

• Active safety + TACC/AP can detect and respond to a lot more situations.
• Better lane keeping ability
• I think there is less hold the steering wheel nagging as it uses the interior camera to monitor the driver
• TACC will adjust set speed based on speed sign
• Can intermittently subscribe to FSD to see how it evolves first hand
• Comes with Sentry Mode and Dash Cam which are really cool
• Blindspot video feed comes up when hitting turn signal.

Negatives:

• No Auto Lane Change
• Autobrights come on when AP is activated. You can turn it off each time, but it's annoying.
• Tesla Vision hasn't reached parity with Vision+Radar like it still has an 80mph set limit
• More prone to slowing due to weather
• TACC adjusting to speed based on what it thinks is the speed limit can cause phantom braking.
• The fact that it responds to more situations means more phantom braking
• Terrible auto wipers
• The V11 UI is a pile of crap

I think what you'll find is that it will have more phantom braking, but it will be nuisance phantom braking where it will be annoying. I wouldn't say constant, but maybe 1 or 2 every hundred miles or so.

I personally wouldn't get another Tesla due to the lack of ability to report bugs or issues with nav/maps. There is a massive wall between Tesla and the customer. For me about 70% of the phantom braking issues that happen (on divided highway or freeway) are due the car slowing because it suddenly thinks its on a different road. So the root cause of a lot is the maps/navigation which should be easy fixes, but Tesla has no mechanism for reporting bugs/issues aside from the silly voice reporting thing.

 

[EVNow]

Getting back on point …

Owner reports of phantom braking to NHTSA rose to 107 complaints in the past three months, compared with only 34 in the preceding 22 months.

This does look like more PB in the last few months than earlier. Ofcourse Tesla is selling a lot more vehicles now - but the fleet hasn’t increased that much in last 3 months.

What other reasons there would be for that many PB compliant increases other than actual PB increases ? Is someone running a social media campaign urging others to complain ?

 

[Knightshade]

Getting back on point …



This does look like more PB in the last few months than earlier. Ofcourse Tesla is selling a lot more vehicles now - but the fleet hasn’t increased that much in last 3 months.

What other reasons there would be for that many PB compliant increases other than actual PB increases ? Is someone running a social media campaign urging others to complain ?

That 3 month period includes the brief release of the broken software that threw AEB and other braking warnings almost constantly.

Tesla "recalled" it fairly quickly, but the largest chunk of that initial 3 month surge in late 2021 is almost certainly that... (and the next 2 months were both lower, though still above average-- then there appears to be a new spike after the original WaPo story about the first spike, which I think was already discussed as not necessarily being comparative data.)

 

[EVNow]

That 3 month period includes the brief release of the broken software that threw AEB and other braking warnings almost constantly.

Tesla "recalled" it fairly quickly, but the largest chunk of that initial 3 month surge in late 2021 is almost certainly that... (and the next 2 months were both lower, though still above average-- then there appears to be a new spike after the original WaPo story about the first spike, which I think was already discussed as not necessarily being comparative data.)

That makes sense. That FSD beta issue would have created a spike.

infact it is possible that issue and its coverage made people report in larger numbers.

I guess only Tesla has the real numbers.

 

[DayTrippin]

My model Y went to a new home today in East Texas to a forum member. It was about a 2 hour drive on I-20. I had a few minor slow downs (3-4 mph) which didn't concern me. In the middle of nowhere, I had a sever phantom braking event. From about 80 mph down to 50 mph in about 1 second. Fortunately nobody was close enough hit me.

I made not of the area. The new owner drove me back to the house. He had heard about phantom braking but this was his first Tesla and was curious about what I had experienced. I pointed out the exact area where I had experienced on the way over. He drove back through that same area at a different time of day and again it had PB in the same area I experienced. Again it was a significant slowdown and he couldn't see anything that would cause it. He had the benefit of advance notice and still didn't see anything.

So while this may be anecdotal, it clearly was repeatable. So while the same car, it was two different drivers, maybe different lane choices, speed, time of day, etc. and still there was a significant PB event. So if anyone is going eastbound on I20 in Texas, just before the 536 exit, it would be interesting to see if your car brakes for nothing as well. It is a 4 lane divided highway and what should be optimal conditions for TACC.

 

[OncomingStorm]

Sorry, this argument is rubbish, IMO. Teslas are cars, Just like Chevys and Fords and Subarus and Toyotas and they are designed to do the same thing. How they accomplish that task may be quite different ‘under the hood’ but it doesn’t matter. Your argument is akin to saying ‘the car has a flat six engine. It’s very different from the V8 so you can’t compare them.’

Other people have said ‘Tesla does things differently.’ Ok. But does it work. Different is only better if it’s better. If it doesn’t work then it’s worse and there’s no point.

but its not the same thing at all... traditional adaptive cruise control isn't looking for the car behind or to the side of you, its not predicting what someone 2 lanes away might do as well as 1000 other things its attempting to predict at any given time. yes a more dumb version of TACC will have less false positives but purely because its not looking for as much, it will also allow someone to PIT you out of the blue with no warning but i'm guessing that doesn't matter for your argument.

much like my analogy... ie a calculator is a "dumb" version of a computer.... all other versions of TACC are "dumb" versions when compared to a tesla

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

but its not the same thing at all... traditional adaptive cruise control isn't looking for the car behind or to the side of you, its not predicting what someone 2 lanes away might do as well as 1000 other things its attempting to predict at any given time. yes a more dumb version of TACC will have less false positives but purely because its not looking for as much, it will also allow someone to PIT you out of the blue with no warning but i'm guessing that doesn't matter for your argument.

much like my analogy... ie a calculator is a "dumb" version of a computer.... all other versions of TACC are "dumb" versions when compared to a tesla

With any TACC/AP system there will be a balance between safety and convenience. That the safer a manufacture makes it the more likely it is going to trigger on something it shouldn't.

Other car manufactures have a lot of these safety features which can and do cause phantom braking on occasion.

Much of the complaints on this thread are with Tesla Vision, and that didn't come with anything for that tradeoff.

It was simply released prematurely.

Here is a good video of the sort of phantom braking people are experiencing. I can't compare my FSD Beta vehicle to is as its whole different beast. But, I don't recall having any of that when using AP before Tesla Vision.

 

[OncomingStorm]

Much of the complaints on this thread are with Tesla Vision, and that didn't come with anything for that tradeoff.

It was simply released prematurely.

i think your right that some seem to attribute it to the change to vision only and perhaps in their case it did cause issues with their experience but its all very subjective... i know 2 M3 owners who have used both the radar and vision only cars and both have told me their breaking issues have diminished greatly with vision only. not to say that they speak for everyone either, but rather that while one person might have gotten the shaft we have to assume that on the whole tesla sees less issues with vision only vs radar + vision. that said i, like everyone, do wish we had more hard data to work with, you can only assume so much from market actions and tweets haha.

 

[Knightshade]

My model Y went to a new home today in East Texas to a forum member. It was about a 2 hour drive on I-20. I had a few minor slow downs (3-4 mph) which didn't concern me. In the middle of nowhere, I had a sever phantom braking event. From about 80 mph down to 50 mph in about 1 second. Fortunately nobody was close enough hit me.

Not for nothing, but that would be braking at -1.37g.

It's physically impossible your car did that.

0.2g is full regen, and can be surprising if you're not expecting it. 0.5g would feel like fairly hard braking. 0.7g would feel pretty near slammed brake to the floor.

So, that likely took at least 2 seconds

That out of the way, did either of you notice what the displayed speed limit was when this happened? I've seen more than a few mentions of bad map data making a car suddenly think it was on an adjacent service road with a much lower speed limit, and the fact it appears have have gone specifically down to 50 both times makes that the first thing I'd look at.