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Phantom Braking
- Thread starter 2101Guy
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Increasingly less so over time though.
Then neither is vision I guess- since FSD predates the vision-only switch.
You keep thinking there's "one simple problem" that is causing issues for everyone, but that just ain't so.
Most people don't even have serious problems. Those that do tend to be all over the place on where, why, and when.
Daytime is better! No, night is!
Radar was better! No, vision is!
I get little slowdowns all the time but no major braking! No, I get major braking a lot!
I get problems when it's sunny! No, I get problems in bad weather!
I get issues on 2-lane undivided roads! No, I get issues on highways!
You keep refusing to accept it's a complex system with a myriad of variables- and thus performance can vary by a lot of degrees for a lot of different people under a lot of different circumstances.
While also refusing to accept even the "surge" months in the original story about this represented ~100 people in a fleet greater than 1 million cars- so serious issues are rare in general.
Which again means your experience is not the norm.
Most folks I've seen (and myself) have seen PB on FSDBeta get much better over time.
When I first got it it'd slow down 5-10 mph frequently with oncoming traffic or blind hills.
Now, when it does it at all, it's 2-3 mph.
You keep trying to impose your personal experience on a diverse fleet. It's not helpful.
Again, you've been provided numerous anecdotes of owners of those cars for whom it was not perfect.
Weirdly you insisted their anecdotes were not useful data... but somehow yours is.
That does not seem a rational or useful argument.
Again you don't understand what an algorithm is, as has been proven in some detail... For example where you insisted inaccurate speed limit databases meant the TACC algorithm was "wrong" and even repeated explanations of why that isn't so have fallen on deaf ears.
Unless or until you're willing to take to time to learn anything at all about the systems details or parts, trying to discuss that is also not especially helpful or useful.
You can't blame a thing when you demonstrate you don't even know what the thing is, let alone what it does.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Except that’s *not* the same thing. That was plain ol’ dumb cruise. Our 2000 odyssey has it and it actually has ‘failed’ once or twice. IIRC it just quit working until I turned off the car. Either way, Adaptive cruise is a totally different animal.
Why is comparing how well system performs its functions fundamentally flawed? Using your computer analogy, one could argue that because the computer is so much more advanced and complex and can do so much more then it’s ok if it has trouble doing basic arithmetic because it’s not a calculator. If the new system can’t perform as well as the old one then the old system was better.
Again, ‘progress’ is fine. Doing things differently is fine. Doing things worse is not. If Tesla can’t figure out how to at least be as good as the ‘old’ way then they’ve failed.
Yes. Absolutely agree. Tesla also has additional work to do because of their updates. Our odyssey came with a manual when we bought it and the manual and that same manual is just as accurate now as it was when we bought it.
The ability to update the software is a step forward, but it also means they have a bigger communication job. The fact that we need sites like notateslaapp.com to give notes on updates is inexcusable.
Why does the Prius adaptive cruise work better? Is it all due to the radar? How about the Forester?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It's also factually wrong.
The same release notes on notateslapp show on your cars display after the update (and if somehow miss that, are available with a button press under the software tab)
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
No idea, really. My point was that since both of them work, it’s not an intrinsic issue with either technology and must be the programming itself.
It’s very possible that Tesla is trying to do more by using vision - no one knows exactly what they’re TACC algorithm does, is trying to do, or what their goals are. We just know they’re not succeeding.
Glad yours has been almost perfect with respect to PB. I wish I could have said the same.
As for sales growth, it can be killed in an instant. Once a problem or defect reaches critical mass, the market can turn in an instant. The world is not filled with Tesla Stans who will blindly accept this or follow Elon like lemmings.
Most of the news around the issue has been mostly on enthusiast websites or media. The average consumer doesn't spend much time on them. I would imagine all of us here are a very small subset of Tesla owners. If there are a few fatalities, major incidents, and it reaches the more mainstream news sources, it could have a huge impact overnight on Tesla's demand. This issue is literally an accident waiting to happen (if it hasn't happened already).
Tesla basically screwed us all with the quick cutover to TeslaVision. It was a knee jerk reaction to keep things moving. I don't think even Tesla knew how bad it was going to be. If the FSD stack has fewer issues maybe push it on down. Even then if you recall Tesla pulled one version of the FSD due to PB. Can you imagine how bad it had to be if Tesla pulled it on their own? It most have been total shite, like a momma calling their own baby ugly. Or maybe it was just as bad as I was experiencing at the time on a "normal" basis.
I definitely think Tesla believed smoothing this stuff out would be much easier than it actually is.
The fact that almost all of Tesla’s vehicles are two models that share a platform and the tech is shared across the entire fleet also exposes risk both positive and negative. If something is wrong, it’s applicable to a much larger number of vehicles than the OEMs who have tons of different models, configurations, different tech platforms, etc
The fact that almost all of Tesla’s vehicles are two models that share a platform and the tech is shared across the entire fleet also exposes risk both positive and negative. If something is wrong, it’s applicable to a much larger number of vehicles than the OEMs who have tons of different models, configurations, different tech platforms, etc
EVNow
Well-Known Member
This is a big point a lot of people miss.
All the OEMs severely restrict their highest level of automation by putting them only on their most expensive cars, most expensive trims and sometimes only on their EVs that sell in small numbers.
For eg. Honda had a “Level 3” model Legend that sold < 100. GM’s new UltraCruise will be available only on the new Cadillac EV that will sell in small numbers.
To be fair, all Tesla vehicles are expensive and we don't truly know if the tech will be feasible on a range of other, cheaper models. Could you sell FSD capability on a $30k EV and make money?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
But Honda Legend > $100k and Cadillac EV starts around $60k.
Model 3 sells for the median new car price but those median priced cars won’t have the OEM‘s best tech.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Except you've been given multiple examples where they don't work, across every brand of car, because it is an intrinstic issue with the technology.
You just refuse to accept any mountain of evidence because you PERSONALLY didn't have it happen to you.
We do though,
It has even been explained to you, multiple times, regarding for example why the algorithm isn't doing anything wrong when it changes speed based on inaccurate speed limit databases.
You again just refuse to even try and understand this, while continuing to blame the wrong stuff because can't be bothered to read anything more than a sentence long.
Not really.
The average new car as of last month in the US was over $47,000.
The cheapest Tesla is $44,990 (less if your state still has EV incentives)
That question doesn't make any sense.
The HW costs are pretty minimal.... well under $1000 total for everything including the driving computer, 8 cameras, and the ultrasonics...and since both HW and SW are the same on all vehicles, the software carries a huge profit margin.
You'd make more profit on the FSD part of a 30k car than on a 50k one as a % of the sale. (obviously less on the car itself though).
Me too. I don't want anyone having the types of issues some folks are describing.
I certainly think Tesla should try and figure out why a tiny minority of the fleet has them.... and why even among that group there appears to be no consistency in where/when it happens. Maybe there's some really obscure, rare, glitch in camera calibration or something.
But all the data available suggests the serious issues with it are not the norm, so continuing to blame the system generally, when generally serious problems aren't hitting most, does not follow.
I don't really think a couple hundred complaints in a fleet of 2 million is critical mass. Or even several orders of magnitude near it. YMMV of course.
Thusfar it's been a tiny % of all owners with ANY issue. And 0 accidents.
For years now (PB isn't new- for any brand- there's stories going back years, again across plenty of non-tesla brands, of sporadic issues with phantom braking).
It was a major bug in the release, and was pulled in less than 24 hours.
And even then it results in zero accidents
I totally get how someone who keeps having these issues with the normal SW would be upset by it... or how it might "feel" dangerous.
But objectively it does not appear to be dangerous.
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My god Knightshade your posts are ridiculously blown up
The cheapest Tesla is at the average car price that is a conglomeration of much cheaper and much more expensive vehicles -- what does that tell you? I can't seem to find the median car price but considering cheaper cars sell more volume, I bet it's significantly lower.
Let me crunch some numbers here
The cheapest Tesla is at the average car price that is a conglomeration of much cheaper and much more expensive vehicles -- what does that tell you? I can't seem to find the median car price but considering cheaper cars sell more volume, I bet it's significantly lower.
Let me crunch some numbers here
SalisburySam
Active Member
Thank you, I worked hard on that, well, except for the “stupid” part. As I recall when I wrote that, there may have been lingered effects from the previous evening’s adult beverage intake.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
Your Ford LTD will run right over the car in front of you if it happens to apply the brakes.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Friends don’t let friends post drunk! (Or hung over!
)Alright here, these are Tesla's numbers according to the 4Q21 shareholder deck
Now we can strip some other stuff out of Automotive Revenue, like lease revenue, but this is probably close enough for conversation purposes.
Lets say the average Tesla sold for $49.5k in 1Q21 -- do you want to hazard a guess @ the average vehicle price at that time?
In June of 2021, aka 2Q, it was apparently just under $40k
Source: Average new car price hits record $41,000
In July at the start of 3Q it was just over $41k. Prices have been steadily increasing since the pandemic hit, so comparing numbers right now is a bit deceiving.
We're talking a 20%+ premium over the average vehicle price much less the median, I don't think there's any arguing Teslas are not expensive.
Now we can strip some other stuff out of Automotive Revenue, like lease revenue, but this is probably close enough for conversation purposes.
Lets say the average Tesla sold for $49.5k in 1Q21 -- do you want to hazard a guess @ the average vehicle price at that time?
In June of 2021, aka 2Q, it was apparently just under $40k
Source: Average new car price hits record $41,000
In July at the start of 3Q it was just over $41k. Prices have been steadily increasing since the pandemic hit, so comparing numbers right now is a bit deceiving.
We're talking a 20%+ premium over the average vehicle price much less the median, I don't think there's any arguing Teslas are not expensive.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It tells me your claim "all" Teslas are expensive is factually wrong.
They sell at least one model below average market price.
Your later trying to guess using numbers that don't provide the info you're looking for, since Tesla doesn't break out by trim that way, notwithstanding.
If you think correcting non-factual claims is "ridiculously blown up" I'm not sure I can help with that.
The SR Model 3 is about 3 below average new car price.
The LR Model 3 is about 3 above it.
The P is obviously more, but that's a tiny % of sales if you go by the little data we do have (Troy for example).
So no, they're not expensive. Even moreso in their class if you compare to comparable stuff from Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, etc...
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
But then people can’t use that as an excuse for features that don’t work!
I meant your posts are blown up because they consume an inordinate amount of webpage space, you seem to be taking this stuff quite personally
Tesla is a luxury brand, it is not an average brand. We can't hold Tesla up with BMW, Audi, etc and compare them as a luxury automaker and pretend their vehicles don't sell for luxury prices.
Trying to argue otherwise is honestly just strange and probably a bit disingenuous. Do we want to add another layer to this argument? 97% of Tesla's 2021 production was the Model 3 and Y, the two "cheapest" vehicles.
Tesla is a luxury brand, it is not an average brand. We can't hold Tesla up with BMW, Audi, etc and compare them as a luxury automaker and pretend their vehicles don't sell for luxury prices.
Trying to argue otherwise is honestly just strange and probably a bit disingenuous. Do we want to add another layer to this argument? 97% of Tesla's 2021 production was the Model 3 and Y, the two "cheapest" vehicles.
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