Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[2101Guy]

dont know if its been mentioned in this thread BUT if this has been determined to be a design/engineering fault of Tesla's, that its definitively due to the control arm design? I'd be immediately taking all of my evidence to my small claims court to recoup the cost of new set of rear tires and cost of the aftermarket fix.

And no, not every state recognzes the "forced" arbitration clause for those who didnt opt out when they bought their plaid.

Risk of going to small claims? Couple hours of time and around $50 average in filing fee.
Reward? Getting all of your money back

Not sure about many of you, but I do NOT let big companies off the hook for things they are absolutely responsible for. If you can build self landing rockets, surely you can design a properly aligned rear suspension on a car.

and with this having the potential (reality?) in causing a blowout, I assume many of you that were impacted, filed complaints at NHTSA.GOV?

 

[TSLA Pilot]

dont know if its been mentioned in this thread BUT if this has been determined to be a design/engineering fault of Tesla's, that its definitively due to the control arm design? I'd be immediately taking all of my evidence to my small claims court to recoup the cost of new set of rear tires and cost of the aftermarket fix.

And no, not every state recognzes the "forced" arbitration clause for those who didnt opt out when they bought their plaid.

Risk of going to small claims? Couple hours of time and around $50 average in filing fee.
Reward? Getting all of your money back

Not sure about many of you, but I do NOT let big companies off the hook for things they are absolutely responsible for. If you can build self landing rockets, surely you can design a properly aligned rear suspension on a car.

and with this having the potential (reality?) in causing a blowout, I assume many of you that were impacted, filed complaints at NHTSA.GOV?

Wow, so much drama, time, and trouble for what?

Far better to allow Michelin to simply replace your current tires with new while they investigate the issue, no?

While there is a growing business selling replacement suspension parts for those that wish to buy into that "story," the reality is that it's likely this tire issue that will be resolved by Michelin forcing Tesla to switch to their EV specific tire, the one used by Mercedes and linked earlier . . . .

 

[n2mb_racing]

Wow, so much drama, time, and trouble for what?

Far better to allow Michelin to simply replace your current tires with new while they investigate the issue, no?

While there is a growing business selling replacement suspension parts for those that wish to buy into that "story," the reality is that it's likely this tire issue that will be resolved by Michelin forcing Tesla to switch to their EV specific tire, the one used by Mercedes and linked earlier . . . .

The Model S always eats through tires due to either excessive negative camber or positive toe. You can replace tires, but they will wear out again in 10k miles on that inner edge only. The camber arms should provide a permanent fix so you can get 30-40k out of tires.

 

[Awiner]

The Model S always eats through tires due to either excessive negative camber or positive toe. You can replace tires, but they will wear out again in 10k miles on that inner edge only. The camber arms should provide a permanent fix so you can get 30-40k out of tires.

Excessive positive toe (pointing inwards) or excessive negative toe ? I would think on the rear excessive negative toe (pointing outwards) will eat the inner first.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Excessive positive toe (pointing inwards) or excessive negative toe ? I would think on the rear excessive negative toe (pointing outwards) will eat the inner first.

I thought negative toe was pointing in. Yes, I mean pointing out.

 

[Awiner]

 

[Awiner]

Came across this today. A company that sells shims to reduce camber on the 2021+ S and X. Not adjustable like N2itive but I thought their explanation was spot on.

Highly recommend the read.

Why does the Tesla S and X have too much camber? - MACSBOOST.com

Elon is a genius. Shouldn't these vehicles be perfect from the factory? To answer this you must ask yourself for what situation are they perfect for. Is it everyday driving, or is it for breaking records on high speed tracks? For the curious, the stock suspension of the Tesla S and X (and...

www.macsboost.com

 

[TSLA Pilot]

The Model S always eats through tires due to either excessive negative camber or positive toe. You can replace tires, but they will wear out again in 10k miles on that inner edge only. The camber arms should provide a permanent fix so you can get 30-40k out of tires.

No, no, no. This is a common error running throughout this thread, and it is exasperating.

The rear tires are NOT wearing out. The tread reflects even wear, edge to edge.

The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires, as used on the MS Plaid "refresh/Palladium" (and regular MS to a much lesser extent, if at all), are COMING APART at the inner sidewall. This is a sort of internal delamination that sometimes manifests via slow air loss (1 to 4 psi per week). With SOME tires the first indication is the tire blowing out . . . .

Either is a poor outcome, but the latter failure mode may be fatal if it occurs at high speeds, on a curve, etc.

Hence, the importance of a recall, something that is likely IF enough Tesla MS owners file a formal complaint with both Michelin and the NHTSA (links below).

Thank you.

Michelin Tire Support & Michelin Customer Support | Michelin

Need Michelin tire support or Michelin customer support? Access our contact information here, and get the answers to all of your Michelin questions.

www.michelinman.com

Report a Safety Problem | NHTSA

File a complaint with NHTSA if you experienced a vehicle, tire, car seat or equipment safety problem that could be a safety defect.

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[emailforbrett]

I just had my passenger rear tire replaced since my driver rear had tread separation two weeks ago with little warning. The passenger rear is showing early signs of tread separation. You can also clearly see the rubbing and abrasion on the inside of the tire wall right at the tread/sidewall seam which is caused by the excessive negative camber built into the fixed camber OEM Tesla arms. You can also see plenty of remaining tread and even wear on the rest of the tire. This tire has 15,600 miles on it, so judging by the remaining tread, I drive like an old man.

I installed the adjustable N2itive arms last week, had the alignment performed to the N2itive recommended settings, and now have two new rear tires. I will monitor the wear pattern over the next year or so and report back if it definitely fixed the inner sidewall separation issue.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

I just had my passenger rear tire replaced since my driver rear had tread separation two weeks ago with little warning. The passenger rear is showing early signs of tread separation. You can also clearly see the rubbing and abrasion on the inside of the tire wall right at the tread/sidewall seam which is caused by the excessive negative camber built into the fixed camber OEM Tesla arms. You can also see plenty of remaining tread and even wear on the rest of the tire. This tire has 15,600 miles on it, so judging by the remaining tread, I drive like an old man.

I installed the adjustable N2itive arms last week, had the alignment performed to the N2itive recommended settings, and now have two new rear tires. I will monitor the wear pattern over the next year or so and report back if it definitely fixed the inner sidewall separation issue.

View attachment 914834View attachment 914835View attachment 914838View attachment 914839

Sorry, but just because you wrote this does not make it so:

You can also clearly see the rubbing and abrasion on the inside of the tire wall right at the tread/sidewall seam which is caused by the excessive negative camber built into the fixed camber OEM Tesla arms.

Recommend we wait and see what Michelin's investigation reveals, but this same alignment "defect" would also damage some percentage of the Plaids with the 19" OEM wheel and tire.

We have yet to read of even ONE report of tire issues with the 19" OEM Pirelli tires . . . anywhere.

Thus, I would offer that an internal tire defect could also be the cause of the inner sidewall failure mode.

 

[emailforbrett]

Sorry, but just because you wrote this does not make it so:

You can also clearly see the rubbing and abrasion on the inside of the tire wall right at the tread/sidewall seam which is caused by the excessive negative camber built into the fixed camber OEM Tesla arms.

Recommend we wait and see what Michelin's investigation reveals, but this same alignment "defect" would also damage some percentage of the Plaids with the 19" OEM wheel and tire.

We have yet to read of even ONE report of tire issues with the 19" OEM Pirelli tires . . . anywhere.

Thus, I would offer that an internal tire defect could also be the cause of the inner sidewall failure mode.

Your post makes no sense my friend. You can see the abrasion and lathing of the edge of the tire in the photo. A faulty tire does not cause this. If you believe that is not the case, then please explain how a faulty tire will cause the lathing on the edge of the inside wall of the tire. All you have to do is Google, and everything points to negative camber, causing this wearing of the tire on the inside of the tire. This is basic non-technical information. Read up on negative camber and the associated ramifications to the tire.

 

[Awiner]

Sorry, but just because you wrote this does not make it so:

You can also clearly see the rubbing and abrasion on the inside of the tire wall right at the tread/sidewall seam which is caused by the excessive negative camber built into the fixed camber OEM Tesla arms.

Recommend we wait and see what Michelin's investigation reveals, but this same alignment "defect" would also damage some percentage of the Plaids with the 19" OEM wheel and tire.

We have yet to read of even ONE report of tire issues with the 19" OEM Pirelli tires . . . anywhere.

Thus, I would offer that an internal tire defect could also be the cause of the inner sidewall failure mode.

Actually I did read about a 19” issue on this forum or maybe it was one of the FB groups. There were photos as well. Let me find the link and post it when I get home so we all can peruse it. Albeit that’s only a handful of 19” issues vs 21”.

Of course it is possible that the 19” profile is more forgiving but I am not a tire engineer so I will reserve that opinion to someone qualified.

To your point, it very well can be a combination of issues. Alignment, faulty tire design, etc. I wouldn’t rule anything out but would absolutely correct as much as I could to avoid a catastrophic failure.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Your post makes no sense my friend. You can see the abrasion and lathing of the edge of the tire in the photo. A faulty tire does not cause this. If you believe that is not the case, then please explain how a faulty tire will cause the lathing on the edge of the inside wall of the tire. All you have to do is Google, and everything points to negative camber, causing this wearing of the tire on the inside of the tire. This is basic non-technical information. Read up on negative camber and the associated ramifications to the tire.

There are a huge number of variables in any given tire failure modality. As a classic example, please review the Wiki below on how “scab” workers, terrible management, engineering workarounds, and many other factors lead to the deaths of hundreds, and injuries for thousands:

Firestone and Ford tire controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To suddenly “solve” these failures by locking in on camber alone would have you rule out all other factors inappropriately…..

I hope that Tesla will transition to the Michelin EV tire being used by Mercedes as I have a hunch it may be more robust for Plaid-level loads.

 

[emailforbrett]

While you are correct in that tire failures can be caused by a myriad of issues related to the tire itself and faulty production, your argument is a non sequitur. Provide an example where a faulty tire caused the lathing or wear specifically at the edge of the tire. This is classic, textbook negative camber wear.

 

[n2mb_racing]

While you are correct in that tire failures can be caused by a myriad of issues related to the tire itself and faulty production, your argument is a non sequitur. Provide an example where a faulty tire caused the lathing or wear specifically at the edge of the tire. This is classic, textbook negative camber wear.

Little bit of both, right? The previous 21" tires also wore heavily on the inside edge from excessive camber, but they didn't seem to delaminate and fail dramatically. I had a 2016 P90DL and I wore the insides of the tires, but never saw a failure.

This tire seems to fail dramatically when you abuse it by wearing the inside edge to the cords.

 

[supermac]

No, no, no. This is a common error running throughout this thread, and it is exasperating.

The rear tires are NOT wearing out. The tread reflects even wear, edge to edge.

The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires, as used on the MS Plaid "refresh/Palladium" (and regular MS to a much lesser extent, if at all), are COMING APART at the inner sidewall. This is a sort of internal delamination that sometimes manifests via slow air loss (1 to 4 psi per week). With SOME tires the first indication is the tire blowing out . . . .

Either is a poor outcome, but the latter failure mode may be fatal if it occurs at high speeds, on a curve, etc.

Hence, the importance of a recall, something that is likely IF enough Tesla MS owners file a formal complaint with both Michelin and the NHTSA (links below).

Thank you.

Michelin Tire Support & Michelin Customer Support | Michelin

Need Michelin tire support or Michelin customer support? Access our contact information here, and get the answers to all of your Michelin questions.

www.michelinman.com

Report a Safety Problem | NHTSA

File a complaint with NHTSA if you experienced a vehicle, tire, car seat or equipment safety problem that could be a safety defect.

www.nhtsa.gov

The tesla s/x have has more camber than any other vehicle on the road. Not only is is hard on the inner sidewall it reduces straight line grip significantly. Every one ever manufactured is like this. Here is an easy fix that honestly everyone needs. Why does the Tesla S and X have too much camber?

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Little bit of both, right? The previous 21" tires also wore heavily on the inside edge from excessive camber, but they didn't seem to delaminate and fail dramatically. I had a 2016 P90DL and I wore the insides of the tires, but never saw a failure.

This tire seems to fail dramatically when you abuse it by wearing the inside edge to the cords.

And, of course, we're somehow missing the long thread with pictures of dozens of Pirelli 19" tire failures as well . . . .

 

[TSLA Pilot]

The tesla s/x have has more camber than any other vehicle on the road. Not only is is hard on the inner sidewall it reduces straight line grip significantly. Every one ever manufactured is like this. Here is an easy fix that honestly everyone needs. Why does the Tesla S and X have too much camber?

Yes, and that's why there's that other thread with so many 19" Pirelli tire failures . . . which there isn't.

Look, I realize there is a growing industry making money selling new suspension parts for Palladium MS's, but the reality is that we need to back off on a "single source" for this problem.

Michelin is investigating as we speak, and I hope they'll work with NHTSA on a recall of the Tesla OEM Pilot Sport 4S ASAP as those are the common thread in every single tire delamination we've seen so far. Every one.

 

[n2mb_racing]

And, of course, we're somehow missing the long thread with pictures of dozens of Pirelli 19" tire failures as well . . . .

True, also it wasn't an issue with the 21" Michelin Pilot Sport tires we had on the previous Model S. Although the S did wear the inside edges of those, but just not as badly. It was also a higher aspect ratio tire.

 

[supermac]

The heat in the sidewalls did not magically appear. It is from deflection of the rubber. It takes work to do that and energy from the batteries that could be put to more useful things. Try some less camber.