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Plaid+ CANCELLED

IdahoRenegade

Member
Apr 5, 2021
14
-2
83860
The EPA test is standardized and VERY specific. It's run indoors on a dyno, and then that result is plugged into a formula, essentially, and corrected to make a "real world" number to account for weather.

When I say very specific, I mean extremely specific. As in, start at zero MPH, accelerate to 34 MPH in 8 seconds hold that speed for 14 seconds, then accelerate to 50 MPH in 6 seconds, hold that speed for 47 seconds, etc. I used to have the speed / acceleration / time chart but I can't find them now so I'm totally making those numbers up, but you get the idea. Not only is it specific as to speed vs. time, it's specific to acceleration vs. time.

Manufacturers have tried to game this test forever. They employ specialized drivers that are experts in absolutely nailing the speed / acceleration / time chart to the second. IN the end, it's a standardized test that has nothing to do with how people actually drive, so as they say, Your Mileage May Vary. But it's all they can really do, short of running each car on a road in a closed environment.

VW's scandal was on emissions for their diesel engines. They programmed the computer to recognize the sequence of acceleration / time present for the EPA test, and it switched into a low emissions mode which gave lower real-world performance. Since performance is not measured during the test, it really goes unnoticed. When the ECU did not detect that it was performing an emissions test, it defaulted back to a higher-polluting, but better performing, mode.

I have to say, I own one of the VW diesel engines. And while I was always a little suspicious at how long it took between refills of DEF, the engine always ran pretty clean. There was never any smoke on acceleration, never any soot whatsoever inside the tailpipe, no stink, no smell, no coal rolling. The engine has been remapped to meet regulations, which nerfed performance, and then re-mapped again subsequently which brought it about 90% of the way back. And I cannot detect any difference in fuel economy (I have tracked since new) nor in visible soot / emissions. It's as clean as it ever has been. I don't even clean the tailpipe, it's always been super clean.

Anyway, sorry about the anecdote.
No, it was a good anecdote! I have NO issue with what VW did with their diesels. The EPA wrote the test and mandated that the vehicle pass that specific test, period. VW did exactly that! They shouldn't have been punished because the useless bureaucrats at the EPA suddenly decided that their test was crap and didn't measure "real world" conditions. The foolish thing is that our EPA doesn't formulate different standards for gas and diesel cars. Diesels by their nature are better at some emissions standards, worse in others. They are significantly more efficient, get better fuel economy, and due to burning less fuel, produce less CO2. Yet instead of adjusting the standards to weight where they do well, vs where they do a little worse, the EPA mandated the same standard for gas and diesel vehicles.
 

RobDickinson

Member
Jun 23, 2019
746
666
New Zealand
No, it was a good anecdote! I have NO issue with what VW did with their diesels. The EPA wrote the test and mandated that the vehicle pass that specific test, period. VW did exactly that! They shouldn't have been punished because the useless bureaucrats at the EPA suddenly decided that their test was crap and didn't measure "real world" conditions. The foolish thing is that our EPA doesn't formulate different standards for gas and diesel cars. Diesels by their nature are better at some emissions standards, worse in others. They are significantly more efficient, get better fuel economy, and due to burning less fuel, produce less CO2. Yet instead of adjusting the standards to weight where they do well, vs where they do a little worse, the EPA mandated the same standard for gas and diesel vehicles.
Whut lol no thats not how it happened.
 

Panus

Member
Jun 9, 2021
6
7
Greenville, NC

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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,613
7,941
Seattle area, WA
i wonder if the plaid announced today will have higher range . $10k price bump
Neh, $10K bump because Plaid is so good. Funny thing, this will bring it much closer to competing with rea cars, so maybe a great litmus test - given the same price, would you choose a a car with better interior, more features, better service and support but slightly slower and little less range, or go for Plaid.
 
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DukeofURL

Member
Apr 1, 2016
682
1,350
North NJ
Neh, $10K bump because Plaid is so good. Funny thing, this will bring it much closer to competing with rea cars, so maybe a great litmus test - given the same price, would you choose a a car with better interior, more features, better service and support but slightly slower and little less range, or go for Plaid.
Indeed, and Plaid+ will come back in some variation, once the 4680s are ready for market. I imagine it will be closer to $175k then, and an even tougher choice. Teslas have always been a bargain for the performance, as long as you can deal with a few differences. I think Tesla (the company) is now testing market demand with these constant price raises, and won't stop until supply outstrips demand, which of course is only good business. It's for this reason I'm considering converting to a Plaid order instead of waiting out the +. Not sure if I'll be interested in that high of a price for a Model S.
 

cryptyk

Member
Jul 8, 2015
454
243
United States
Because the model has been canceled. I was interested in the range, not going a million miles per hour.
Right, but I'm assuming that when they call the plus reservation holders and ask them what they want to do with the reservation, they'll give an option for a refund since the car was cancelled. Maybe I'm wrong, but waiting a few weeks for tesla to cancel the reservation might result in a refund.
 

DukeofURL

Member
Apr 1, 2016
682
1,350
North NJ
Right, but I'm assuming that when they call the plus reservation holders and ask them what they want to do with the reservation, they'll give an option for a refund since the car was cancelled. Maybe I'm wrong, but waiting a few weeks for tesla to cancel the reservation might result in a refund.
Also, the $1000 was listed as refundable. The later $100 deposit was non-refundable, regardless I believe the contract terms say if you cancel the order, you lose the $100, if Tesla cancels it they will refund it. That said, I would definitely wait.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,266
1,789
The Woodlands, TX
You are suggesting that Ford and other makers deliberately reduce their EPA estimates so that it will match up better with people's real world experience. There's almost zero chance a profit driven corporation would do that. I'm sure Porsche would kill to get a better EPA estimate, but the peculiarities of the test lower their results.

What is more likely is that the EPA estimates are too specific and can vary too much between cars that otherwise have very similar real world range.
I.e. the top 5 cars in the Edmunds test are within 10% of each other in terms of driving range, but their EPA estimates are wildly different.

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying they are doing. And Porsche, for one has admitted as such. They were flat out asked and said "we chose the more conservative rating method" which is to do fewer tests and apply the 70% reduction factor, rather than do all the tests, which is what Tesla does.

Porsche knew their EPA ratings were low, and actually hired an independent company called AMCI to conduct "real world" range tests on the Taycan and the very same day that the EPA ratings for the original Taycan Turbo were released, published this study documenting that while the EPA range is low, in fact the Taycan can comfortably exceed it.


VAG got severely burned by Dieselgate. Like billions of dollars burned. They would much rather play it safe than go through that again. So while your logic makes sense, you're actually incorrect. As a Porsche owner, an EV owner, a general EV fan, and a Porsche diesel owner to boot, I paid a LOT of attention to the Taycan EPA rating and this AMCI study. I wanted to know why there was such a difference. To the point where I started analyzing data, comparing test results and consumptions and actually downloaded the info on the whole EPA test. It didn't make sense to me originally either, but it does now.

So yes, Porsche is being deliberately conservative with their EPA rating. Note that for 2021 models they revised it upward, for the same car. And it's still lower than the AMCI "real world results"
 
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TexasTezla

Member
Feb 28, 2020
127
90
Texas
Range anxiety not needed. It’s good enough.
Who is talking about anxiety from range? The vast majority of owners want more. If you don't, good for you. What is 'good enough' for you wont necessarily be good enough for others. What if I told you your salary was 'good enough' and no more raises for you? Your home was 'good enough', don't think about moving, Bluebell Vanilla was good enough, we don't need any more flavors! People that suggest 'good enough' should cover everyone else has a clear lack of understanding of human nature!
 

greenmore

Member
Apr 21, 2021
48
96
Maryland
Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying they are doing. And Porsche, for one has admitted as such. They were flat out asked and said "we chose the more conservative rating method" which is to do fewer tests and apply the 70% reduction factor, rather than do all the tests, which is what Tesla does.

Porsche knew their EPA ratings were low, and actually hired an independent company called AMCI to conduct "real world" range tests on the Taycan and the very same day that the EPA ratings for the original Taycan Turbo were released, published this study documenting that while the EPA range is low, in fact the Taycan can comfortably exceed it.
This is a little misleading. Porsche didn't voluntarily reduce their EPA estimate with the 70% reduction factor. They only reduced it for the 2020 Turbo S from 200 to 192 (by 8 miles). They also reduced the the rating for the 2020 Taycan Turbo, but only by 1 mile. They still admit that their cars do bad in the EPA cycle, regardless of whether the EPA's numbers are meaningful or not.
This "generosity" didn't last long, however, as they didn't do reduction for the 2021 Turbo S, which is now rated at 201 miles.
 

Panus

Member
Jun 9, 2021
6
7
Greenville, NC
Right, but I'm assuming that when they call the plus reservation holders and ask them what they want to do with the reservation, they'll give an option for a refund since the car was cancelled. Maybe I'm wrong, but waiting a few weeks for tesla to cancel the reservation might result in a refund.
Hello. Two days ago a sales rep at the Raleigh dealership texted me and gave me info on how to “prepare” for my Plaid delivery (my apparently $156,000 Plaid).
In other words, they were just converting my order the the Plaid. THAT prompted me to cancel. I was interested in the increased range. I am more than happy with my 2019 Long Range currently.
 
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