Porsche Mission E

[WarpedOne]

This unrestricted highway speed is a 'death-trap'.
Physics is the same for all. You either optimize for 'civil' speeds or you optimize for 150+ mph and sacrifice civil efficiency.
MIssion E might be capable of sustained 155mph and laping the Nurburgring, but it will come have awful Wh/km even when only doing city streets.
Beefed up cooling and radiators have weight. The same when you go 15 or 155. And they take space ... forget about frunk.

 

[Reciprocity]

OK now Porsche is saying that it is a competitor to the Model S and will start at $75k. In 2020. Dream Day: 2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS and 2020 Porsche Mission E | Automobile Magazine

Curious on how that will compare to the starting prices of the 2017 lineup

Porsche Panamera - $85,000, 0-60 in 5.4sec
Porsche Panamera 4 - $89,600, 0-60 in 5.2sec
Porsche Panamera 4s - $103,000 0-60 in 4.2sec

And, of course the Model S

Tesla Model S 75D - $74,500, 0-60 in 4.2sec

Hmmmm, Stuttgart I believe we have a problem.

Recent rumor that the non duel motor S might be coming back as well for 2018 based on EPA or NHTSA fillings. With 2170 and single motor, the S could fit nicely between a decked out duel motor model 3 and model S 75D. Maybe as low as $59k and complete nicely with the entry level 5 series. The mission E is rumored to be $75k for the rwd base model.

Let's not forget that we still haven't even seen the car. It is a Tesla killer if it looks like the mockups and I would but it, but it won't. If it looks like a panamera then no thanks. Interior space will be interesting. Doubt it's even close to model S.

 

[30seconds]

OK, even if you don't worry about the 0-60s time, will the performance of the $75k Mission E on the Nurburgring and the Autobhan be better or worse than the $85k Panamera or $89k Panamera 4S?

 

[aus]

What you don't seem to get is that only Germany has unrestricted highway speeds and Germany is a tiny fraction of the global automarket.

Double shaking my head now. All anyone here knows about performance cards are 0-xxx numbers.
That's NOT why people buy Porsche sports cars. It's all about how a car allows you to feel the road, and how fast it allows you to drive around a turn and feel good doing it. My point is, Porsche isn't going to be making 0-xx mph their main focus in terms of performace goals.
.

 

[aus]

OK, even if you don't worry about the 0-60s time, will the performance of the $75k Mission E on the Nurburgring and the Autobhan be better or worse than the $85k Panamera or $89k Panamera 4S?

From everything I've read, Porsche is placing this car below Panamera, and knowing Porsche, they'll handicap it's performance to let the Panamera be top dog. Just like they've limited the Cayman's performance to not step on the big brother 911's speed and lap times.

.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

If Mission-E is a similar size to the Panamera, then it'll be a similar size to the MS and not an A5. /...

Are you sure?...

...] Despite the car’s low H-point and sloping roofline, the position of its two comfortable rear seats is surprisingly relaxed thanks to the so-called foot garage, a deep recess in the floorpan that splits the battery tray. “The production version is in essence a C-segment sedan with an almost D-size interior,” explains project leader Stefan Weckbach. “Visually, the car combines 911 overtones with fresh proportions and very good space utilization even though the Mission E is notably more compact than the Panamera.” [My two underlines.] [...

Source: Dream Day: 2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS and 2020 Porsche Mission E | Automobile Magazine

 

[meomyo]

What you guys don't get is, German's aren't enamored with 0-60. They know the numbers but it's not THE number for them.
Whereas, on this forum, 0-60 is all anyone seems to care about... because the MS does well in this category.
.

0-60 is a total american mindset thing..for sure. But with so much traffic in usa in most decent cities its useless.Its hype and over rated.Its fun and cool yea but really its a parlour trick for any car. The real sell to EV will be range-super fast charging times and a sc network. With all those( range not even the most important if the other 2 are there) a company will take off. And if the company can style the car in a sporty sleek way with decent luxury at case model it will sell. The leaf/i3/bolt ect ev are clown cars and ugly as all hec.I mean they have designers right they pay alot to right? So make cars more appealing aesthetically. 95% of cars on the road today are f-ugly..boring and styling is crap.

 

[Spidy]

 

[FlatSix911]

This may be a tough sell ... Porsche is working hard to sell its electric transformation to its motorhead fans

Despite the fact that Porsche still doesn’t have an all-electric vehicle on the market, the German automaker made it clear that they are all-in on the electrification of their lineup. Now, they are working hard to sell this electric transformation to their motorhead fans ahead of the release of their first all-electric car. Over the last few weeks, the company has been releasing a bunch of interviews with executives in charge of the programs related to electrification and statements about their accelerated effort to bring EVs to market.

Today, they also released a long essay about how electric powertrains offer several advantages over internal combustion engines – something you would have never thought could have come out of Porsche just a few years ago. If you are already an EV enthusiast, it’s nothing you’ve never heard before, but the fact that it is coming out of Porsche, it could convince a few diehard motorheads that going electric is not a bad idea. Here are a few of my favorite parts from the post:

“Switch on and enjoy the silence – undoubtedly one of the attractions of electric powertrains. Manufacturers must do more, however, in particular those whose customers have become accustomed – after decades of combustion engine optimisation – to demanding the best. Their electric powertrains must guarantee the highest possible driving performance over long periods of time. Any manufacturer that masters this challenge will create a long-lasting buzz among customers – thanks to the strengths of the electric powertrain.

In principle, the electric powertrain has one huge advantage in terms of driving dynamics: Since its power can potentially be delivered immediately thanks to force-locking, the torque can be transferred to the wheels with only a short delay. This means that even small cars or compact vehicles can produce more powerful acceleration than their conventionally powered siblings.”

You can read the full post on Porsche’s media website.

 

[sakimano]

What you don't seem to get is that only Germany has unrestricted highway speeds and Germany is a tiny fraction of the global automarket.

not for luxury cars it isn't. Audi BMW and Mercedes all sell about a million cars a year there. That's more than they sell in the US.

Back to the Mission E, if everyone is focusing on that and think "tesla will be fine, the Mission E is too small" etc. they're losing sight of the big picture. You don't think there will be all electric Cayenne, 911, Panamera within a year of the mission E launch? Same goes for the Audi A8 and Q7 and Q5...or the BMW 3 series and 7 series and X5. There's a tidal wave of electric product ready to hit the market, but they're not doing so until their charging network is complete in 2020.

Tesla was first to market with the concept of the electric car you might actually want to own, which was brilliant, and it has cost them billions in losses trying to get established. MB, Audi and BM are more responsible to their shareholders so they're biding their time and will launch when it's more prudent to do so. Unwittingly Tesla is making the world comfortable with electric German cars. The Tesla owner who tells a die hard Porsche fan that he loves his electric car, it is practical and well...it works...he's not selling the guy on the Model S...he's selling him on the idea of a Mission E or Electric Panamera.

The 3 largest, most profitable luxury car makers as well as Ford Europe and Shell just got together and committed billions of dollars to building a charging network that will not only span europe but will offer charging at speeds that double or triple the existing tesla supercharger network. People can joke about that all they want but I think it will be a pretty tough battle for Tesla. They really need to grow the brand and become immensely profitable by then because competition doesn't help margins...it kills them.

 

[sakimano]

Let's not forget that we still haven't even seen the car. It is a Tesla killer if it looks like the mockups and I would but it, but it won't. If it looks like a panamera then no thanks. Interior space will be interesting. Doubt it's even close to model S.

seriously you haven't seen one?

here you go...

a poorly disguised mule...

 

[Reciprocity]

not for luxury cars it isn't. Audi BMW and Mercedes all sell about a million cars a year there. That's more than they sell in the US.

Back to the Mission E, if everyone is focusing on that and think "tesla will be fine, the Mission E is too small" etc. they're losing sight of the big picture. You don't think there will be all electric Cayenne, 911, Panamera within a year of the mission E launch? Same goes for the Audi A8 and Q7 and Q5...or the BMW 3 series and 7 series and X5. There's a tidal wave of electric product ready to hit the market, but they're not doing so until their charging network is complete in 2020.

Tesla was first to market with the concept of the electric car you might actually want to own, which was brilliant, and it has cost them billions in losses trying to get established. MB, Audi and BM are more responsible to their shareholders so they're biding their time and will launch when it's more prudent to do so. Unwittingly Tesla is making the world comfortable with electric German cars. The Tesla owner who tells a die hard Porsche fan that he loves his electric car, it is practical and well...it works...he's not selling the guy on the Model S...he's selling him on the idea of a Mission E or Electric Panamera.

The 3 largest, most profitable luxury car makers as well as Ford Europe and Shell just got together and committed billions of dollars to building a charging network that will not only span europe but will offer charging at speeds that double or triple the existing tesla supercharger network. People can joke about that all they want but I think it will be a pretty tough battle for Tesla. They really need to grow the brand and become immensely profitable by then because competition doesn't help margins...it kills them.

All very valid points if you assume what these companies are saying is true. Also valid even if you dont fully believe them. The biggest issue that the competition has is not charging though its an issue. Dont forget that the VW chargers in the US will be open to Tesla as well. No the bigger issue is that when the magical year of 2020 finally comes and they make this huge investment, in the hundreds of billions of dollars between the companies you listed, they will have an opportunity to sell a rabid Porsche customer a money losing Porsche EV in stead of a profitable Porsche ICEv. Tesla has 0.5% of the market share. No one is going to take market share from Tesla. Porsche, BMW, Daimler, Audi and VW will all be cannibalizing their profitable models, really their most profitable models, with money losing EVs. Why would they be losing money? Because they just invested billions in charging and electrifying their product line all while making their existing manufacturing less efficient by doubling the number of models which makes all of them lower volume and less efficient. They are also going to be buying battery cells at retail due to the 120 models coming in the magical year of 2020 all in need of cells and none of them make their own. At best, some are investing in Pack assembly. They are hoping for the OEMs to invest billions of their own to make batteries for them. This fragmentation and competition for limited cells will drive prices up.

Their problems only grow from there. The dealer networks dont want to sell EVs because they dont need service. The manufacturer will need to incentivize them to support the vehicles and they cannot directly support them because it is illegal. The people who run those old school auto companies are not techy nerds, they are mechanical engineers and they hate EVs. This is not who I want leading my big push into EVs. The transmission engineer that has been with the company for 50 years and is now an Executive and all he knows is gears grinding together.... from his head "what do you mean theirs only one gear!?!?"

When you dig deeper into each and every vehicle that has been announced, you find some themes. They are smaller. They are more expensive for a similar size. They have less range. They are slower. They quote prices for base models with 0 features where if optioned to a similar level, the shorter ranged, smaller and more expensive car is not competitive with the Model S/X and 3. Are you aware that the Jaguar IPace is smaller then the Model 3? Its 1" less Length, 1" narrower width and 5" taller, but its an SUV, so its essentially the same height in the cabin. The range is 250 or less EPA rated range and it costs almost as much as a base Model X. This is the cream of the Competitive crop. Nice looking car, no doubt. I am a fan of how it looks. I am a fan of the smaller SUV. But its over the top expensive and has less then average range for a car that expensive. Its basically a nice looking Bolt for the price of a Model X.

Lastly, none of them have said they will make any more then 10-20k a year of any of the magical 2020 cars, including the Ipace. Evan at that few, they will be fighting over cells with 120 models coming. None of which will be competitive with the 2020 model S/X. You know the one with permanent magnet motors and 2170 cells at 35% savings and all new fancy interior. People are comparing these magical 2020 cars with the 2012 model S with a face lift. You have no idea whats coming and neither do I. But I can guess by looking at the Semi and Roadster and the future looks ridiculous.

 

[Reciprocity]

seriously you haven't seen one?

here you go...

a poorly disguised mule...

Oh I have seen the power point version. The top 3 look nothing like the bottom one. I have no idea what it will look like. if it looks like the top one and is $80,000, it will do great. Porsche will sell them at all a massive loss instead of some Panamera's at a profit.

 

[jelloslug]

seriously you haven't seen one?

here you go...

a poorly disguised mule...

Did you seriously post pictures of a concept car and a test mule as examples of a production car?

 

[sakimano]

Did you seriously post pictures of a concept car and a test mule as examples of a production car?

actually that's the car. Seriously. It is not a concept car.

 

[techmaven]

seriously you haven't seen one?

a poorly disguised mule...

So, @Reciprocity said we haven't seen what the Porsche Mission-E looks like and you go and post pictures of the Mission-E concept car. The concept car != the production Mission-E. And the mule running around is still somewhat disguised not to mention we don't know what the interior looks like.

Chances are, based on the mule, the production version will look like a baby Panamera:

Makes sense since the Mission-E started as the Pajun project to make a baby Panamera.

 

[sakimano]

Dont forget that the VW chargers in the US will be open to Tesla as well.

Says who? They're building an exclusive network like tesla. By your rationale tesla sc is now open to Nissan. It's not. It's proprietary. Even if it was open to tesla how does that matter? People are mocking the Porsche because there's no supercharger network. They're building it.

No the bigger issue is that when the magical year of 2020 finally comes and they make this huge investment, in the hundreds of billions of dollars

? Hundreds hwut?
A few billion , shared by a bunch of very profitable companies for the charging network.

No one is going to take market share from Tesla. Porsche, BMW, Daimler, Audi and VW will all be cannibalizing their profitable models

Said no realistic business person ever.

That makes no difference anyway The discussion isn't about profitability of these companies once they go full bore electric. The discussion is will tesla be able to compete and hold them off. Example: The model x is overcomplicated, unreliable and to me , not my style. It looks like a big egg or a 5 series GT . It's ugly. To me. But I'd love an electric cayenne or Q7 or Q5. You think I'm the only one on this board that will consider all of my options once there are some good alternatives to tesla? Not everyone is a fanboy wearing blinders .

Why would they be losing money? Because they just invested billions in charging and electrifying their product line all while making their existing manufacturing less efficient by doubling the number of models which makes all of them lower volume and less efficient.

You're talking about companies who are making billions of dollars a year , they can absorb the costs of transition. But again that's irrelevant. It's coming and they're coming. You seem to think that an expensive capital outlay is going to make them abandon the car business lolol. They've been in business for a century. They're not going to just fold the factory up.and give the market to tesla. Don't forget these guys can't sell anything but electric in half of Europe by 2040. They're playing the long game. You act like these are a bunch of sheep. These are wolves.

The dealer networks dont want to sell EVs because they dont need service.

tesla charges me more to service my P90D than Land rover charges me per year to service my range rover sport.

They quote prices for base models with 0 features where if optioned to a similar level, the shorter ranged, smaller and more expensive car is not competitive

Guess you were one of the lucky ones who got a $35,000 model 3? When i configured mine it came out to about $60,000 or about 175% of the announced price. You must really be tesla blind.

 

[sakimano]

So, @Reciprocity said we haven't seen what the Porsche Mission-E looks like and you go and post pictures of the Mission-E concept car. The concept car != the production Mission-E. And the mule running around is still somewhat disguised not to mention we don't know what the interior looks like.

Chances are, based on the mule, the production version will look like a baby Panamera:
Makes sense since the Mission-E started as the Pajun project to make a baby Panamera.

I thought he seriously hadn't seen any of the pics. And I've been told it's not much different to the prototype that was shown around other than some safety changes and less dramatic wheels. We shall see.

 

[Reciprocity]

I have not seen an actual picture of an actual car and neither have you. If that prototype is the final, then it's awesome. No doubt. My birthday was yesterday but I wasnt born yesterday, so I'll wait for a real photo of a real car with a real price tag with real options and EPA numbers. But I'll concede if that's the car, Porsche won't sell another panamera so why bother making them.

Edit: responded to the wrong person. Sorry tech. Please don't ban me. I love you.

 

[Reciprocity]

Says who? They're building an exclusive network like tesla. By your rationale tesla sc is now open to Nissan. It's not. It's proprietary. Even if it was open to tesla how does that matter? People are mocking the Porsche because there's no supercharger network. They're building it.
? Hundreds hwut?
A few billion , shared by a bunch of very profitable companies for the charging network.


Said no realistic business person ever.

That makes no difference anyway The discussion isn't about profitability of these companies once they go full bore electric. The discussion is will tesla be able to compete and hold them off. Example: The model x is overcomplicated, unreliable and to me , not my style. It looks like a big egg or a 5 series GT . It's ugly. To me. But I'd love an electric cayenne or Q7 or Q5. You think I'm the only one on this board that will consider all of my options once there are some good alternatives to tesla? Not everyone is a fanboy wearing blinders .



You're talking about companies who are making billions of dollars a year , they can absorb the costs of transition. But again that's irrelevant. It's coming and they're coming. You seem to think that an expensive capital outlay is going to make them abandon the car business lolol. They've been in business for a century. They're not going to just fold the factory up.and give the market to tesla. Don't forget these guys can't sell anything but electric in half of Europe by 2040. They're playing the long game. You act like these are a bunch of sheep. These are wolves.

tesla charges me more to service my P90D than Land rover charges me per year to service my range rover sport.

Guess you were one of the lucky ones who got a $35,000 model 3? When i configured mine it came out to about $60,000 or about 175% of the announced price. You must really be tesla blind.

Says electrify America as part of the diesel gate settlement.

I can't see, I'm blind so I can't read the rest of your awesome post.