Porsche Mission E

[techmaven]

Wiener Motorensymposium 2018: Eine Branche wehrt sich – heftig - Auto-Medienportal.Net

"Die Autohersteller, die bereits Milliarden in das Thema versenkt haben, üben sich in Zweckoptimismus: Wer einmal ein Elektroauto gefahren sei, kehre nicht mehr zum Verbrenner zurück, behauptet ein Vortragender aus dem Hause BMW. Und Porsche-Chef Oliver Blume beteuert, der neue Mission E fahre sich wie ein echter Sportwagen. Auf Nachfrage von Motoren-Koryphäe Friedrich Indra muss er präzisieren: Man könne damit zehnmal von 0 auf 100 km/h oder viermal von 0 auf 200 km/h hochbeschleunigen, bevor das Auto in ein Not-Sparprogramm umschaltet. Das bedeutet: Für eine Runde auf der Nordschleife dürfte es nicht reichen."

Google Translate English version:

Automakers who have already sunk billions into the subject, practice in optimism: Who was ever driven an electric car no longer return to the Nitro, claims a lecturer from BMW. And Porsche CEO Oliver Blume insists the new mission I'm going like a real sports car. On demand of engines luminary Friedrich Indra he must specify: One could thus high speed ten times from 0 to 100 km / h or four times from 0 to 200 km / h before the car switches to an emergency austerity program. This means that for a lap of the Nordschleife it might not be enough.

Hmmm... I haven't seen this reported elsewhere on the thermal limits of the Mission-E/Taycan.

 

[Sean Wagner]

That's a great find. Thank you for digging this up. Very significant.
The Motorensymposium in Vienna figures among the most prestigious yearly gatherings of top notch experts in internal combustion.

There goes the assumption Porsche would engineer a battery/cooling system combo that operated at full power throughout.

So I guess "Autobahnfest" will need a qualifier too.

I had hoped the picture of electric Porsches zipping down the German highways' left lanes would act as catalyser for the acceptance of EVs there.

That article is replete with dark mutterings and grumblings too. Many in the industry are not happy at all, to say the least.

EDIT: And if it hadn't been Fritz Indra asking about the drivetrain's capabilities, the response might have been a lot less precise.

 

[hydro 481]

I placed my deposit in Thousand Oaks. No harm in calling to see what number you would be on the list there or at other dealers. I assume that your odds of getting a Taycan during the first wave of deliveries will be increased not only by being toward the top of a dealer's list, but also by selecting a high-volume dealer that is likely to get a larger allocation of vehicles.

Thanks. I'm thinking perhaps waiting till the second delivery run might be a better idea in case they need to iron out any last minute kinks.

 

[hydro 481]

A few photos of the Misson E concept from Pebble Beach ... much larger than the 911, more like the Panamera


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Looks good. Hopefully the production model doesn't change too much. I think the Taycan is smaller than Model S so not that big IMO.

 

[ACA Man]

Thanks. I'm thinking perhaps waiting till the second delivery run might be a better idea in case they need to iron out any last minute kinks.

My thought exactly.

 

[hydro 481]

A bit premature to ask but the Taycan should qualify for the $7500 + $2500 rebates in Cali right?

 

[FlatSix911]

Looks good. Hopefully the production model doesn't change too much. I think the Taycan is smaller than Model S so not that big IMO.

In person, the Mission E appears significantly larger and wider than the current Model S... YMMV

 

[hydro 481]

In person, the Mission E appears significantly larger and wider than the current Model S... YMMV

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Wait...you've seen one in person? Are those your pics?

Not sure how reliable this is but according to Wikipedia Mission E dimensions:

Length: 190.9"
Width: 78.3"

Compared to Model S:

Length: 196"
Width: 77"

If those numbers are true than Mission is only about an inch wider. But of course it's Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt. Based on those pics you posted, I have to agree with you that it does look quite a bit wider from the rear.

Anyways how did the car look in person? How does it stack up to the Model S? Did you record any videos?

 

[FlatSix911]

Wait...you've seen one in person? Are those your pics?
Not sure how reliable this is but according to Wikipedia Mission E dimensions:
Length: 190.9" Width: 78.3"
Compared to Model S:
Length: 196" Width: 77"
If those numbers are true than Mission is only about an inch wider. But of course it's Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt. Based on those pics you posted, I have to agree with you that it does look quite a bit wider from the rear. Anyways how did the car look in person? How does it stack up to the Model S? Did you record any videos?

Yes, the Mission E was displayed at Pebble Beach last week... looks like someone stepped on a Panamera
I have decided to wait and see what the future 911 E will look like.

 

[hydro 481]

Yes, the Mission E was displayed at Pebble Beach last week... looks like someone stepped on a Panamera
I have decided to wait and see what the future 911 E will look like.

Don't ruin it for me man

 

[Sean Wagner]

If those numbers are true than Mission is only about an inch wider.

The concept car's dimensions won't match the production version, just as the silhouette seems to differ, judging from pics of the seemingly production-ready prototypes undergoing testing.

I can't imagine a sporty Porsche that's wider than a Model S either - that would make it a real challenge to drive on the most enjoyable roads of Europe, never mind your usual side streets.

 

[avoigt]

Wiener Motorensymposium 2018: Eine Branche wehrt sich – heftig - Auto-Medienportal.Net


Automakers who have already sunk billions into the subject, practice in optimism: Who was ever driven an electric car no longer return to the Nitro, claims a lecturer from BMW. And Porsche CEO Oliver Blume insists the new mission I'm going like a real sports car. On demand of engines luminary Friedrich Indra he must specify: One could thus high speed ten times from 0 to 100 km / h or four times from 0 to 200 km / h before the car switches to an emergency austerity program. This means that for a lap of the Nordschleife it might not be enough.

Hmmm... I haven't seen this reported elsewhere on the thermal limits of the Mission-E/Taycan.

That a great find and I have been looking for that piece of information since a while because Porsches demands would indicate a Batterie cooling improvement aheads of Tesla's. Not that this is impossible but if you are able to be better in that respect you will have also advantages in other areas and I did not see Porsche advertise them.

IOW their messages does not fit together for me. Now after reading this I dare to say their previous statements about unlimited ability to accelerate w/o overheat are simply false or vastly overblown.

10 times 0-60 miles/h or 100 km/h may sound a lot but it depends on what timeframe and country we talk here. Does that also mean 10 times from say 100 km/h to 200 km/h ? If so than this would be easily achieved in a short timeframe on a German Autobahn. At least me driving and I drive a Porsche and I go with that speed quite often and am not alone out there.

So this is not just on a race track scenario but here in Germany "normal usage". A lot of people driving fast. That said I don't expect Tesla to be able to do this either but they are at least honest and don't set that expectation.

Sorry, my US friends but we have some freedom on our Autobahn here in Germany other countries of the free don't have .....

 

[hydro 481]

The concept car's dimensions won't match the production version, just as the silhouette seems to differ, judging from pics of the seemingly production-ready prototypes undergoing testing.

I can't imagine a sporty Porsche that's wider than a Model S either - that would make it a real challenge to drive on the most enjoyable roads of Europe, never mind your usual side streets.

Here's a quote from a recent Car and Driver article:

"The size of the vehicle and its basic proportions were more or less locked into place with the concept. The Mission E sedan and Cross Turismo measure just a few inches shorter than the Tesla Model S, and the Cross Turismo, with its 1.2-inch-higher ride height and roughly 3.5-inch-taller body, adds up to the same 56-inch overall height as a Model S."

Here's a quote from Road and Track:

"The Mission E concept combined futuristic looks with classic Porsche proportions to stunning effect, and thankfully the production car will too. Oliver Blume told Car magazine that the production car is "very close to what you saw two years ago at Frankfurt. It will be exciting but a bit different from the concept. Don't expect the suicide doors of the concept to make production, though."

So it looks like the dimensions won't change too much from the concept model. I'm just curious what changes they will make to the exterior.

 

[R.S]

New quote from Porsche in Electrek today which may explain the charge rate issue:



I interpret this as meaning that they're planning to launch the vehicle with 150kW charging capability, and raise it up to 350kW - or even higher - as advances in battery tech allow them to. Meanwhile they're building 350kW stations in order to enable their planned future.

If this is a correct interpretation... it's case solved. 150kW is very much achievable with high energy density cells of today's tech in a pack of the Taycan's size without undue battery wear. And 350kW could very well be acheivable "several years down the line". No need to postulate unusually large unusable battery buffers or that they'd be frying their cells with high C-rates. If they launch with 150kW, that's today's tech.

It's also worth noting that they could get 150kW from some of the already-in-place higher-power CCS 1 stations using 800V charging - something that no other mass-market EV can do (CCS 1 is current limited to 200A; the higher-power stations are only higher power with respect to higher voltages, which only Porsche will be able to utilize). They won't need to wait for the CCS 2 network to take (at least limited) advantage of higher charging powers.

Also from the article:



The more I see of this sort of stuff, the more convinced I am that Porsche is the only company apart from Tesla that really seems to "get it" (battery-buffered charge stations is what Tesla is moving to in the near future). Aka, understanding the importance of fast charging, the importance of streamlining / energy efficiency in order to minimize time spent charging, the infrastructure issues, etc. And meanwhile they're spending their PR efforts not obsessing over Tesla and Tesla customers - rather, with converting gasoline drivers to electric. Like any responsible company that sees EVs as the future should be doing.

They're burdened with a late start, of course, and at least initially low production volumes - but hopefully they'll give the Tesla-hating crowd a nice non-Tesla alternative on the upper end, and likewise for those who don't hate Tesla but just want to try something different.

Probably also worth mentioning that Porsche usually comes in #2 in owner satisfaction, after Tesla. My father's been driving Cayennes practically since they came out, and they earned good loyalty from him. They could still screw this up, of course. But if the tech approach they're going for is what I think it, I think they'll probably succeed and put out a nice, very practical competitor. Not marketing fluff like I-Pace

The original article is about the Porsche charging solution, charge park and charge box: Electromobility as an opportunity

The 150 and 350 kW are the versions of chargers Porsche will install at their charging stations. Here is the quote with more context:

Can the Porsche charging park be built in any location?
M.K.— We have two different variants, the charging park and the ChargeBox. The park is designed for locations with more available space in which a very high volume of charges is to be expected, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. With a small compact station, however, a charging park is possible in the city as well, for example in a residential area. For all areas with extreme space constraints, there is our second variant, the ChargeBox with an integrate battery. It can be connected to the normal low-voltage grid and enables fast charging in spite of its compact dimensions.

Is fast charging always the goal for Porsche?
M.K.— Yes. Our power range starts at about 150 kilowatts today and extends up to 350 kilowatts. In a later phase of development, it could be even more than that. We believe that everything that will be installed in the future will play out in this power range. In the public space, no one wants to have long-term parkers at the charging stations because charging takes so long. Low charging capacity is really only acceptable for charging at home.

So this has nothing to do with how fast the car will be able to charge, but rather how fast the Porsche installed chargers will be able to charge the cars. Their range of chargers today is from 150 to 350 kW and they don't bother with less since "Low charging capacity is really only acceptable for charging at home." And at some point it will be even more than that.

But interestingly they say 20 minutes for 400 km in this interview, but 400 km in 15 minutes on the Mission E/Taycan website:
Mission E

They also say " Each individual cell has a current of roughly 4 volts." It's correct in the German version, but still a bit embarrassing.

Though, Tesla says the Model 3 has 15 Kubikfuß of trunk space on it's German speaking websites, a unit not used since 1875. And back then a Kubikfuß could have been anything from 0.022706 m³ in Saxony to 0.031578 m³ in Austria.

 

[KarenRei]

If that 150kW isn't about the vehicles, only the chargers, then we're back to the question of how they're doing such high charge powers (the cell voltage is irrelevant, ~4V is standard for li-ion).

 

[R.S]

If that 150kW isn't about the vehicles, only the chargers, then we're back to the question of how they're doing such high charge powers (the cell voltage is irrelevant, ~4V is standard for li-ion).

Behause of how good their cooling is? Or the cells they use? Who knows? I guess as soon as it's out, someone will tear it down and explain it to us. Apparently the Bolt's battery cooling could be 3.5 times better, if they had a second cooling plate. So there is room for improvement. Porsche has some really clever engineers and years of experience with high power battery packs for their Le Mans race cars.

(You didn't get the 4V reference, they said 4V of current, but it should be 4V voltage, not current. I was just commenting on the inaccuracy)

 

[KarenRei]

Behause of how good their cooling is?

No. You're still talking about a high C rate. You can take a perfectly cooled small format cell, and you'll still significantly reduce its lifespan if you repeatedly charge it at high C rates relative to low C rates.

Or the cells they use?

Porsche, who hasn't been dumping billions into battery tech for years, is not going to have a secret source of ultra-advanced batteries well beyond the state of the art everywhere else in all industries that use li-ion batteries.

Who knows?

That's precisely the point. Who knows? And the answer to that question is important. If they're doing it via charging the car at 4C, for example, you can expect a significantly reduced battery life if you actually do any meaningful amount of road tripping using said 350kW chargers.

Apparently the Bolt's battery cooling could be 3.5 times better, if they had a second cooling plate

Degradation from high C rates is not the same thing as thermal limits. Both impact battery charging performance. Bolt is heavily thermally limited because of its use of large prismatic cells. Tesla's small cylindrical cells, by contrast (in direct contact with a liquid-filled contour-hugging heat sink), have a very large surface area, making cooling relatively simple. But Tesla is still limited on how fast they can charge - not because of thermal issues, but because of the accelerated degradation that happens when you charge at high C-rates.

Charging li-ion batteries at 4C is fine for, say, drones or cell phones. It's not fine for cars. At least not with high-energy density cells of today's technology. Electric car batteries demand extreme longevity, and you just can't abuse them if you want to achieve that.

It's a very important question as to whether they're just saying "screw lifespan", or whether they're offsetting things in some way (such as with a much larger physical capacity than usable capacity), or whether they're only going to launch at lower powers with the intent to move to 350+kW in the future, or... something else.

 

[wdolson]

In person, the Mission E appears significantly larger and wider than the current Model S... YMMV

View attachment 330543 View attachment 330544 View attachment 330546

The Mission E concept was overall lower than the Model S, but the dimnsions was overall close to the same. The Mission E has more pronounced "hips" than the Model S which make it look wider. That does make the cabin side to side head room less.

Here are the dimension from an EV database:
Porsche Taycan - Mission E
Tesla Model S 100D

 

[FlatSix911]

The Mission E concept was overall lower than the Model S, but the dimensions was overall close to the same. The Mission E has more pronounced "hips" than the Model S which make it look wider. That does make the cabin side to side headroom less.

Here are the dimension from an EV database:
Porsche Taycan - Mission E
Tesla Model S 100D

Based on the referenced dimensions, the Mission E is 145mm (5.8") lower, so it may appear wider...

 

[wdolson]

The Model S is too low for some people now. A friend with mobility issues loves my car, but struggles to get out of it. The Taycan looks like it's going to be worse. Though true sports cars are rarely renown for their ease of access.