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Porsche Mission E
- Thread starter MartinAustin
- Start date
Sure that is true for current batch of superchargers but there are plans or intent for stronger in the (near?) future.
X is coming with a 50% stronger single charger. Those chargers will go into future SC, upping the max output to some 200kW per station. That 50% higher current results in 2,25 times higher heat output. There are reports that existing cables don't get exactly hot, but they do significantly warm up. 2 times more heating power could mean troubles or pose limit on charging speed below 200kW.
It is also true that current batteries cannot take much higher power, but future bigger and improved batteries will be able to do it.
Porsche Announces BEV Concept Car - "Mission E"
Seriously, I am neither sensitive nor being overly defensive, just stating the facts as I see them. I am only pointing out that it is easy for Tesla to fancy up the interior design and add some minor features that you list (and they are minor) compared to Porsche having to do, well, just about everything required to make a long range EV, at a price competitive to the Model S, and with an extensive charging network for long distance travel. Porsche has never done any of those things. Tesla does them all, but doesn't have as nice an interior. Which do you think is more difficult?
Seriously, I am neither sensitive nor being overly defensive, just stating the facts as I see them. I am only pointing out that it is easy for Tesla to fancy up the interior design and add some minor features that you list (and they are minor) compared to Porsche having to do, well, just about everything required to make a long range EV, at a price competitive to the Model S, and with an extensive charging network for long distance travel. Porsche has never done any of those things. Tesla does them all, but doesn't have as nice an interior. Which do you think is more difficult?
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I'm reasonably sure the 918 is a hybrid thus not really relevant to a discussion about BeVs and long range travel charging......
Porsche Announces BEV Concept Car - "Mission E"
Yes the 918 is a hybrid with a relatively small battery and a huge ICE.
As far as I know the only EVs that Porsche has built in the past approximately 67 years that it has been a company were two modified Boxsters with a range of less than 100 miles.
Yes the 918 is a hybrid with a relatively small battery and a huge ICE.
As far as I know the only EVs that Porsche has built in the past approximately 67 years that it has been a company were two modified Boxsters with a range of less than 100 miles.
thegruf
Active Member
LOL. Indeed, apparently that is a pretty tricky thing to do.
Stoneymonster: A brilliant joke, too. Thank you.
If it is so easy then why hasn't Tesla done it? I agree it should be easy. Heck, coat hooks were a solved issue 50 years ago and would cost probably $1 or less to put in. I'm not asking for great voice commands but something as simple as being able to say "Call John Doe on mobile." As for Porsche, I don't think they need a long distance charging network for their initial BEV anymore than Tesla needed one. If it maintains full power and handles exceptionally well then it will sell. Porsche will never be the big volume BEV company. My big reaction is to people dismissing Porsche engineering when it comes to BEV's. Have you looked at the 918? Do you really think Porsche knows nothing about building a BEV? Additionally, from personal experience, I will tell you it is a lot easier to play catchup than to invent initially.
The charging network could be solved by a consortium. I actually think the charging network is the biggest lead Tesla has. That's why I hope Google and Apple join Tesla rather than fighting them. Still, imagine GM, Ford, VW, Mercedes and BMW getting together and each putting in $1B for charging stations. Fortunately, for Tesla, these companies have, so far, been in denial.
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Yes, it is a hybrid. It still has electric motors and batteries and involves most of the design issues of doing a BEV. Do you really think Porsche knows nothing about how to design a BEV? Most car companies probably have several Model S vehicles which have been disassembled and carefully looked at. In many case I suspect the engineers went "Wow, nice way of solving that issue." In a few cases I suspect they have said "Hmmm, I think this can be done better."
If anyone can build a car like the Mission E its Porsche.
You have to love the 918 also. They are getting quite expensive these days. 2x their initial purchase costs..
Porsche Other w Weissach Pkg | eBay
Porsche Other w Weissach Pkg | eBay
Porsche Other | eBay
Porsche Announces BEV Concept Car - "Mission E"
@SR22pilot, in my opinion Tesla has not added the interior and UI features you feel are important primarily because Tesla is production constrained so they don't need to match every luxury feature of the competition because people are still lining up to buy every car they can make. Also, Tesla is resource constrained and they don't want to allocate time and energy to redesign the interior of a car they launched just 3 years ago.
Regarding Porsche and BEVs, yes Porsche has built a couple of hybrids. A hybrid is a long way from a BEV. A hybrid primarily relies on an ICE.
I have looked at more than a couple of 918's, up close. Very cool. But it's a giant ICE with a small battery and it costs close to a million bucks. The Panamera hybrid is very fancy but it is also very costly and the EV range is minimal.
I hope Porsche builds real EVs, and soon, but they are years away (by their own admission) while every year Tesla significantly improves their vehicles, their batteries, their charging network. Porsche is falling behind. I've owned 6 Porsche's in my lifetime (from 1959 models to 2009) and it's sad to see the company fail to innovate.
@SR22pilot, in my opinion Tesla has not added the interior and UI features you feel are important primarily because Tesla is production constrained so they don't need to match every luxury feature of the competition because people are still lining up to buy every car they can make. Also, Tesla is resource constrained and they don't want to allocate time and energy to redesign the interior of a car they launched just 3 years ago.
Regarding Porsche and BEVs, yes Porsche has built a couple of hybrids. A hybrid is a long way from a BEV. A hybrid primarily relies on an ICE.
I have looked at more than a couple of 918's, up close. Very cool. But it's a giant ICE with a small battery and it costs close to a million bucks. The Panamera hybrid is very fancy but it is also very costly and the EV range is minimal.
I hope Porsche builds real EVs, and soon, but they are years away (by their own admission) while every year Tesla significantly improves their vehicles, their batteries, their charging network. Porsche is falling behind. I've owned 6 Porsche's in my lifetime (from 1959 models to 2009) and it's sad to see the company fail to innovate.
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
SR22,
You're funny. If you check my earlier posts, I'm a Porsche fan for doing this based on their engineering and the nature of the company/product line that just might allow them to market a BeV (unlike most every other mfg).
Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between a KERS type torque gap fill in electric capability and a long range BeV.
Lastly, when in doubt on landing, just pull the chute
You're funny. If you check my earlier posts, I'm a Porsche fan for doing this based on their engineering and the nature of the company/product line that just might allow them to market a BeV (unlike most every other mfg).
Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between a KERS type torque gap fill in electric capability and a long range BeV.
Lastly, when in doubt on landing, just pull the chute
In many ways we agree. My point is that as other companies wake up, this attitude Tesla has that they don't need to fix clear ergonomic and use issue will need to change. They will need to make a more complete car.
I have heard the argument that company XYZ has an unsurmountable lead so many times. It is much easier to copy and improve than to innovate. Altair generated the PC market but Imsai quickly copied and fixed the weaknesses on the Altair 8800 such as switch quality and lettering. Boom, Imsai took a lot of market from Altair. I guess I have been so strong on one side because of how dismissive most posts in this thread have been regarding engineering talent at other companies. Being dismissive of the competition is dangerous. There are tremendous resources at other companies. Compared to UCE, electric drivetrains are simpler. Yes, there is some secret sauce but it isn't as much as in the ICE world. In fact one of Tesla's best decisions was to use common batteries rather than new technology like Fisker tried.
As for BEV vs. hybrid, why do you think a BEV is harder than a hybrid. I hate the idea of hybrids because they seem to be the worst of both worlds. Smoothly merging an ICE with a BEV powertrain seems to me to add complexity. Your post indicates you find that easier. I don't. To me the BEV is easier and, from an engineering standpoint, more focused.
I'm a huge Tesla fan but I am also an engineer and a realist. Tesla is at a dangerous point for a company. I watched Apple fail to follow up on the Apple 2. I think Tesla is doing all the right things but I am still nervous because the competitive landscape will be different in 5 years. I think that is how long they have to move from being a specialty car manufacturer to a manufacturer of complete cars.
My main point is that the tone of this thread is that what Porsche says is BS and their engineers are idiots when it comes to BEV's. I think that is incorrect and dangerous. There are excellent engineers at all of the major car companies. Most are hamstrung by management. However, if released, they could do excellent work. There is no great secret to BEV's. A Model S isn't that hard to take apart and reverse engineer. I'm not saying it's easy. I am saying that some excellent engineers and a few billion in backing can catch up if Tesla isn't careful. In five years I am hopeful we will be in a more competitive situation. That will be good for the consumer and the climate.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
You've alluded to the problem. It's not the engineering but the will and vision to execute.
I said this a very long time ago. I do not see the cult of personality needed to persuade any major OEM's board to take the valuation hit as the company abandons ICE for BeV as it re-invents itself. I believed it back then and nothing has changed since to make me think otherwise.
The above said, if anyone can do it, Porsche can.
I said this a very long time ago. I do not see the cult of personality needed to persuade any major OEM's board to take the valuation hit as the company abandons ICE for BeV as it re-invents itself. I believed it back then and nothing has changed since to make me think otherwise.
The above said, if anyone can do it, Porsche can.
In a weird way, I wonder if this TDI mess might motivate VAG to take a moonshot approach to producing the BEVs they've previewed. It would be a good way to change the conversation and regain some of the credibility that they've lost.
I don't think VAG (or Porsche's) corporate culture has traditionally been amenable to that kind of effort, but maybe that will change now.
I don't think VAG (or Porsche's) corporate culture has traditionally been amenable to that kind of effort, but maybe that will change now.
Porsche Announces BEV Concept Car - "Mission E"
I think we are basically in agreement. [emoji3] And I think if you read my posts I do not consider Porsche's engineers are idiots. I do think that Porsche management is failing to lead and is stuck in an ICE mentality, 918 not withstanding. I do think that Porsche fails to fully understand everything required to build a good long distance EV because a high speed charging network is essential. I hope Porsche turns into a serious TSLA competitor! But I think Porsche is years away from that.
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In fairness to Porsche, they are the first company (other than Tesla) I've seen to acknowledge the central importance of a high speed charging network, even in concept form.
In that sense, they may well understand the problem better than anyone else. Whether they decide to execute is another question--but that's one of will rather than understanding.
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