Potential UK Model Y Purchase

[NUModY]

I’m so pleased I found this great place, I’ve been in a rabbit hole since I test drove a MYLR a few weeks ago.

I’ll try to cut a long story short and hope I’ll get some answers from the extensive knowledge and experience of forum members.

So here goes; A few weeks ago SHMBO and I had a conversation during which decided another EV in addition to our MINI electric would be a good Idea, something more practical than the my long term Boxster that has turned into a money pit (no surprise really, she’s 15 years old).

I then spent ages reading reviews and then driving a couple of EVs, an I-Pace and iX3, both good cars, but by the time we added options, far too expensive and way over budget. I then thought of a MY as most things are included and there’s only a few options that we might want.

Eventually I managed to get MY for 24 hours and was really impressed with the car, nice and simple, making the I-pace and iX3 interiors look like a branch of Dixons (ref. for those of us of a certain age!). We both enjoyed the ride, comfort, speed and simplicity. we’d found the car we were looking for - until we drove it home. I tried to check the MY would fit in the garage - WTF! where are the parking sensors? What the hell is this worm running around the car? I get SHMBO to direct the car and see the worm is half way up the bonnet. Damn, we both love the car, but we can’t go through this rigmarole every time we drive the car costing £50k +.

On returning the car to Tesla I explained to the Advisor how much we loved the car, but not having simple parking sensors was a dealbreaker. Even our MINI Electric at almost half the price of a MY has sensors at the front and back (and a camera). I could see the disappointment in his face as he explained that Tesla was aware of the issue and working on resolving it.

That’s when I jumped down the rabbit hole, and have been scurrying around it ever since. I’ve spent ages looking for answers, views and opinions, and I would be grateful if some information is shared answering my questions and queries here. I appreciate the answers may well be on the site, but by head is spinning like I was in The Exorcist.

Thanks if you’ve made it this far without falling asleep!

I suppose I should ask some questions:

I asked the Tesla agent, if I bought a used MY with USS would they still be working? he said they had been disabled and everything is going to vision. Is this the case? Has Tesla actually taken away something that can still be used?

Having tried Autopilot on the test drive, which was ‘interesting’, something I’d want to explore more, but understand from the site that most of the advantages are not available due to recent updates. Auto Park and Summon for example, are they no longer available until updated?

There are some comments about matrix headlights, are they so much better than what was there before?

With Project Highland imminent, how long before we see Project Juniper?

Apologies for the long post and thanks for reading this far, please be gentle, I’m new here

 

[uscbucsfan]

USS are not disabled, they are thinking about radar (although it will likely happen, eventually)

Park assist distances has been delivered on some software builds via cameras, but it's not as accurate as USS.

Juniper is rumored to be Q4 2024.

 

[msinfo]

My 2023 MY LR has the almost useless "worm" but my brother's 2022 MYP absolutely has working USS sensors.

The rest of the q's are not as simple to answer and I'll others more knowledgable to pipe in.

 

[NUModY]

USS are not disabled, they are thinking about radar (although it will likely happen, eventually)

Park assist distances has been delivered on some software builds via cameras, but it's not as accurate as USS.

Juniper is rumored to be Q4 2024.

Thanks for your quick reply uscbucsfan.

So it looks like buying a MY with USS isn't worth it as Tesla could disable the USS at any time, even if they are working now.

The test car was using Tesla Vision (advised by the Agent), it was completely useless, at the rear it showed 20cm, actually 80cm and the front was the opposite, showing 20cm, actually 80cm, hence the front line was half way up the bonnet on the screen.

Sounds like it's going to be a long wait got the new Y, i can only hope they sort out the Tesla Vision so it works properly, though its difficult to see how without extra cameras.

 

[DanDi58]

It is true that the USS have been removed from new MY cars. Parking Assist either works great or is terrible, depending on who you ask.... The answer is probably in the middle. It will probably be improved over time, as Tesla does that with many features, via OTA update. It's a shame that this is a deal breaker for you, as you're eliminating a great experience otherwise, with the most efficient EV's with the best charging network for travelling. To me, it's akin to folks that say they will never buy a Tesla because they don't like Elon.

 

[NUModY]

It is true that the USS have been removed from new MY cars. Parking Assist either works great or is terrible, depending on who you ask.... The answer is probably in the middle. It will probably be improved over time, as Tesla does that with many features, via OTA update. It's a shame that this is a deal breaker for you, as you're eliminating a great experience otherwise, with the most efficient EV's with the best charging network for travelling. To me, it's akin to folks that say they will never buy a Tesla because they don't like Elon.

Thanks DanDi58, I completely understand what your saying, I had the MY for 24 hours and it did everything we wanted, but the USS or accurate distance of objects is really important so we can get both cars into our garage. I'm not a fan of Elon, but that's not what's stopping me buying one. If there was a guarantee that a car with working USS would keep using them or they come up with a system that works properly, I'll happily sign on the dotted line.

 

[laservet]

The vision only parking will get smarter with time. I have a 2020, has the sensors, as do my BMWs, and I find the ultrasonic sensors unhelpful because there are several types of obstructions that would damage the car that the US sensors cannot see. So I pay no attention to the USS, won't miss them a bit once they are turned off. We have some construction going on at my home so I have to back down a long, curved, sloped driveway weaving back and forth to avoid construction materials, and continue to back into a spot in my garage that is 8" wider than my car (measured from tips of rear view mirrors) and after a couple of days I can do it smoothly without stopping using only the rear camera, side cameras, and rear view mirrors. Just a matter of a bit of practice.

 

[NUModY]

The vision only parking will get smarter with time. I have a 2020, has the sensors, as do my BMWs, and I find the ultrasonic sensors unhelpful because there are several types of obstructions that would damage the car that the US sensors cannot see. So I pay no attention to the USS, won't miss them a bit once they are turned off. We have some construction going on at my home so I have to back down a long, curved, sloped driveway weaving back and forth to avoid construction materials, and continue to back into a spot in my garage that is 8" wider than my car (measured from tips of rear view mirrors) and after a couple of days I can do it smoothly without stopping using only the rear camera, side cameras, and rear view mirrors. Just a matter of a bit of practice.

Thanks laser vet, I hear what you're saying, I'm sure it's something that will be resolved, I can't be the only potential owner for parking in a tight garage is an issue. I've seen used 2022 MY's with low mile and US Sensors , but if there is the potential that they will be disabled, its an expensive risk to take.

 

[MattM24]

If it’s a deal breaker for you, don’t make the deal.

 

[father_of_6]

USS are not disabled, they are thinking about radar (although it will likely happen, eventually)

I pay no attention to the USS, won't miss them a bit once they are turned off.

I think it's a poor assumption that USS will be disabled. People are mistakenly conflating radar being disabled with USS being potentially disabled in the future. Tesla already disabled existing radar - if they wanted to disable existing USS they would have already done it.

Some context is necessary. The reason that radar was disabled on existing cars that had it is because Tesla was having difficulties with sensor fusion - meaning sensors of different types (cameras and radar) would sometimes provide conflicting data for the same environment. Elon actually tweeted about this... something like "When radar and cameras disagree, which one do you believe?"

It was decided that they would stop using radar in their various features (autopilot, traffic aware cruise control, auto emergency braking, etc). I remember this well because I held off on installing that software update for a long time because I wanted to retain radar and don't fully trust Tesla vision (and don't care about or use autopilot / FSD / etc).

USS removal was likely spawned by radar removal... e.g. "if we can use cameras instead of radar, we can use cameras instead of USS", but it was done as a cost-saving measure rather than a solution to technical difficulties achieving sensor fusion.

I fully 100% expect USS hardware to continue to be enabled where it exists for the long foreseeable future. Primarily because it works better than it's vision-only software replacement. If Tesla were to disable them in a future software update, I'm fairly confident they would be faced with (and lose) a class action lawsuit (not the first time though). They just don't have any good reason to disable them. Disabling them won't solve any problems, they're already there and work well.

 

[uscbucsfan]

I think it's a poor assumption that USS will be disabled. People are mistakenly conflating radar being disabled with USS being potentially disabled in the future. Tesla already disabled existing radar - if they wanted to disable existing USS they would have already done it.

Some context is necessary. The reason that radar was disabled on existing cars that had it is because Tesla was having difficulties with sensor fusion - meaning sensors of different types (cameras and radar) would sometimes provide conflicting data for the same environment. Elon actually tweeted about this... something like "When radar and cameras disagree, which one do you believe?"

It was decided that they would stop using radar in their various features (autopilot, traffic aware cruise control, auto emergency braking, etc). I remember this well because I held off on installing that software update for a long time because I wanted to retain radar and don't fully trust Tesla vision (and don't care about or use autopilot / FSD / etc).

USS removal was likely spawned by radar removal... e.g. "if we can use cameras instead of radar, we can use cameras instead of USS", but it was done as a cost-saving measure rather than a solution to technical difficulties achieving sensor fusion.

I fully 100% expect USS hardware to continue to be enabled where it exists for the long foreseeable future. Primarily because it works better than it's vision-only software replacement. If Tesla were to disable them in a future software update, I'm fairly confident they would be faced with (and lose) a class action lawsuit (not the first time though). They just don't have any good reason to disable them. Disabling them won't solve any problems, they're already there and work well.

1. Multiple people who worked for Tesla in the past said that there wasn't an issue with radar and vision. It was more coding required and more costly. Multiple engineers tried to fight Elon on it, but it saved the company money/time and was a massive regression for almost a year.

2. People who work at Tesla have said that Tesla will eventually disable USS. Now many who work at Tesla know less than people on this forum, but it's a logical conclusion.

There's a slight chance they never get disabled, but if Tesla/Elon believes they figured out parking distances better with vision than USS (regardless of how true it ends up), they will absolutely disable them. Elon said he believes the USS will be worse than vision will be in the future.

Edit: The class action suit thing gets thrown around with everything. "If they disable radar" "If FSD isn't delivered X year" "If Tesla pushes me to v11 UI"....

 

[father_of_6]

Auto Park and Summon for example, are they no longer available until updated?

Regarding "auto" anything... I'm in the skeptical camp. The auto wipers are pretty bad.

Many owners on these forums rave about FSD, while many others regret paying thousands of dollars for it. My opinion is that truly autonomous driving cannot be achieved with cameras.

My cameras are frequently "blocked or blinded"... almost half the year due to wintery weather, but many times during the rest of the year due to rain, sun, or moisture in the camera housing. Cameras also get tricked by optical illusions (like reflections in puddles on the road). Truly autonomous driving requires LiDAR (my opinion).

Tesla keeps pushing updates to FSD and in some ways it just gets worse. One aspect might improve a tiny bit for some edge cases, and other aspects get worse for other edge cases.

I thoroughly enjoy driving my Model 3 (yes, even after 30 months of ownership) and definitely wouldn't trade that for a stressful experience of letting the car "try" to drive while being ready to take over in a split second's notice when the software doesn't know what to do and thus disengages... no thanks.

There are some comments about matrix headlights, are they so much better than what was there before?

Nah. I have the headlights before matrix, and they're fantastic. My understanding of the matrix headlights is that they operate like many, many tiny lights in tandem. This allows them to be angled while driving in a curved road, and even allowed Tesla to project the word "Tesla" on a wall during a light show. That said, the prior headlights are excellent.

With Project Highland imminent, how long before we see Project Juniper?

I suspect you really did go "down the rabbit hole" of reading about Tesla vehicles and you've discovered what a lot of us have already experienced - that Tesla implements changes quickly (they threw out the "year model" strategy that other manufacturers use) and so it can feel a bit overwhelming knowing *when* to buy or which specific features you should be looking for in a used model.

Before buying mine, I had a conversation with a friend who said "it might not be a good time to buy, they just announced structural battery packs during Battery Day". If I had followed that recommendation, I'd still be waiting for the 4680 battery packs to hit the Model 3... and those packs haven't even provided the value that Tesla originally expected.

On the flip side, if I would've waited 2 months longer, I would've gotten a heated steering wheel for the same price. Oh well.

My recommendation - if you absolutely feel like you *need* USS... buy a used one with USS... but don't fall prey to the FOMO (fear of missing out) of waiting for future revisions. You'll be waiting *forever* because they are always making changes... and sometimes those changes aren't even desirable (e.g. USS). You can sit around waiting for Project Juniper, but you might not even *like* the changes that it brings, and prices could increase at that time.

Get a vehicle you like and don't look back. No regerts.

 

[NUModY]

Regarding "auto" anything... I'm in the skeptical camp. The auto wipers are pretty bad.

Many owners on these forums rave about FSD, while many others regret paying thousands of dollars for it. My opinion is that truly autonomous driving cannot be achieved with cameras.

My cameras are frequently "blocked or blinded"... almost half the year due to wintery weather, but many times during the rest of the year due to rain, sun, or moisture in the camera housing. Cameras also get tricked by optical illusions (like reflections in puddles on the road). Truly autonomous driving requires LiDAR (my opinion).

Tesla keeps pushing updates to FSD and in some ways it just gets worse. One aspect might improve a tiny bit for some edge cases, and other aspects get worse for other edge cases.

I thoroughly enjoy driving my Model 3 (yes, even after 30 months of ownership) and definitely wouldn't trade that for a stressful experience of letting the car "try" to drive while being ready to take over in a split second's notice when the software doesn't know what to do and thus disengages... no thanks.



Nah. I have the headlights before matrix, and they're fantastic. My understanding of the matrix headlights is that they operate like many, many tiny lights in tandem. This allows them to be angled while driving in a curved road, and even allowed Tesla to project the word "Tesla" on a wall during a light show. That said, the prior headlights are excellent.



I suspect you really did go "down the rabbit hole" of reading about Tesla vehicles and you've discovered what a lot of us have already experienced - that Tesla implements changes quickly (they threw out the "year model" strategy that other manufacturers use) and so it can feel a bit overwhelming knowing *when* to buy or which specific features you should be looking for in a used model.

Before buying mine, I had a conversation with a friend who said "it might not be a good time to buy, they just announced structural battery packs during Battery Day". If I had followed that recommendation, I'd still be waiting for the 4680 battery packs to hit the Model 3... and those packs haven't even provided the value that Tesla originally expected.

On the flip side, if I would've waited 2 months longer, I would've gotten a heated steering wheel for the same price. Oh well.

My recommendation - if you absolutely feel like you *need* USS... buy a used one with USS... but don't fall prey to the FOMO (fear of missing out) of waiting for future revisions. You'll be waiting *forever* because they are always making changes... and sometimes those changes aren't even desirable (e.g. USS). You can sit around waiting for Project Juniper, but you might not even *like* the changes that it brings, and prices could increase at that time.

Get a vehicle you like and don't look back. No regerts.

Thanks father_of-6 and others.

You are speaking perfect sense, and I'm getting a good idea from your replies and forum posts as to what to expect from Tesla ownership.

I think my next step should be to find a MY with USS and try it in the garage.

From what I've read, the big deal with HW4 and Tesla Vision is to aid full FSD, not sure that is something that is vital for the amount of driving I do, certainly not at the cost of it.

Things like Sentry, Summon and Autopark would be more than enough, even then it would be a tough decision as to whether Enhanced Autopilot is worth the cost.

 

[DanDi58]

Thanks father_of-6 and others.

You are speaking perfect sense, and I'm getting a good idea from your replies and forum posts as to what to expect from Tesla ownership.

I think my next step should be to find a MY with USS and try it in the garage.

From what I've read, the big deal with HW4 and Tesla Vision is to aid full FSD, not sure that is something that is vital for the amount of driving I do, certainly not at the cost of it.

Things like Sentry, Summon and Autopark would be more than enough, even then it would be a tough decision as to whether Enhanced Autopilot is worth the cost.

Might want to check here, maybe someone near you could help you out.... The UK and Ireland

 

[aspushkin]

It is true that the USS have been removed from new MY cars. Parking Assist either works great or is terrible, depending on who you ask.... The answer is probably in the middle. It will probably be improved over time, as Tesla does that with many features, via OTA update. It's a shame that this is a deal breaker for you, as you're eliminating a great experience otherwise, with the most efficient EV's with the best charging network for travelling. To me, it's akin to folks that say they will never buy a Tesla because they don't like Elon.

Huh? It's least efficient EV out of those I have/had (e-golf, eqs, bolt)

 

[NUModY]

Might want to check here, maybe someone near you could help you out.... The UK and Ireland

Thanks DanDI58, is it possible to move my post to UK and Ireland?

 

[init6]

USS has not been disabled on cars that have the hardware. No one knows what the future holds.
Ditto Highland/Jupiter.

The Search button is your friend.

 

[Lord Farquad]

As a family we have a Mini EV and a MYLR. They complement each other and fill all our needs.

I’m fairly sure that currently cars with USS still work. However eventually Tesla May choose to turn them off if they think Vision is better. You’ll have no choice in practice if this happens.
I’ve found vision based parking ok, but you couldn’t rely on it daily into a tight spot (garage). If that’s your daily usage I’d buy a second hand car with USS.

Basic Autopilot is ok on motorways, but EAP or FSD are not worthwhile in the UK as most features are disabled.

I drove from Liverpool to Wolverhampton yesterday on the M62/M6 and found basic Autopilot did 90% of the driving. It was quite relaxing and I like it.

Project Jumiper could be 2 weeks away (standing joke on here that this is the answer to most Tesla questions). In all seriousness no one knows. Could be 2023 or 2024.

 

[Cilonen]

Welcome!
In short:

- if you want parking sensors, either a used MY (although you may need to be v careful about build dates to ensure they are fitted), or not a Tesla. Vision could be a long way off yet, as Tesla always say that a particular feature is coming "in 2 weeks" / "this quarter" / etc and it rarely appears on that timescale!

- as others have said, the advanced functions of Autopilot (Summon, EAP, FSD) are basically useless in the UK & not worth spending any money on at this time. The necessary hardware is fitted as standard, so you can buy the functions through the app later - it just costs more than specifying at purchase. Regular AP works well enough, once you get used to some of its quirks (random speed reducing due to it seeing a speed sign somewhere nearby, phantom braking if other vehicles are closer than it likes, etc), but is only really viable on motorways / dual carriageways & some A-roads.

- MY will not be getting a refresh on the lines of Highland for at least another year or 2, but may see internal hardware (computer, internal trim, etc) upgrades if Tesla consider it cheaper to have all builds feature the new designs

 

[NUModY]

Thanks guys, Its good to hear helpful responses.

I have to say I was gutted when I realised there were no parking sensors on the MY demo car, If there were, I'd have signed on the dotted line there and then.

I completely see your points on EAP and FSD, I'm not sure I'd trust them on uk roads at this point in time, and the price of both, for me, can't be justified for the miles I drive. Autopark and Summon sound good, but I hear they're not available anymore.

So it looks like my next step is to find a MY with USS and see how they work, but then, what's the likelihood that Tesla would disable them at some point in the future?