I'm just waiting until it gets released. I have a 10kw 3 phase inverter which is on its last legs and will need replacement soon. Starting to make some buzzing noises. Was installed around 2016 before we bought the house. ABB brand so no idea about warranties or anything. Am just thinking I'll bite the bullet and put a PW3 on if they are 3 phase compatible as rumoured.
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Powerwall 3 Roadmap - 3 Phase Coming!
- Thread starter louco73
- Start date
In NSW I’ve been getting 2.5c FIT for a couple of years. But it was a deliberate choice to minimise my grid spend. Turned out the two most important parameters to minimise my bill were (1) lowest offpeak rates because I can shift the vast majority of my consumption to offpeak and (2) low daily connection fee. Plans with much higher FITs almost always had a higher daily charge, a higher offpeak rate, or both. And that made them much more expensive.
High FITs are probably only good if you have a huge solar array and export heaps. In the end, if there is no market for that electricity due to a glut, then it’s unsustainable to pay people much for it. Soon FITs will be zero, then negative, at which point you’ll need a smart inverter that can be set to not export at all by matching output to house consumption.
In the US it is selling for the same price as PW2. And yes it includes an inverter, can have 6 separate solar panel input strings (better than most inverters), can back up 48A of your home which would be enough for ours in a grid outage. You do still need the separate Tesla Gateway to achieve grid independence for grid outages.
Less boxes and less wiring should mean quicker hence cheaper installation. There will be a model supplied without the inverter as an add on for multiple PW3 setups.
I haven't seen anything on the early reported US installations that mean it is natively 3 phase compatible / useful for an Australian 3 phase setup any more than Pw2. But I don't really know what that would require. The most useful relevant information is in the TMC thread (link below) starting early September last year when a guy started posting about his PW3 installation. There is quite a bit of discussion following that and some facts but a lot of guessing and speculation The specifications, user manual etc are now available following the release for general sales about a week and a half ago on the US Tesla site. I also do not think it is definitively confirmed by Tesla as LFP cells or not. The stamped info on the photos for these early examples shown say "Li-Ion" which I think does not pin down the chemistry.
Discussion: Powerwall 3 [Speculation / Discussion etc]
So it seems as though Powerwall 3 might actually be imminent at this point...likely coinciding with the $500 Powerwall rebate expiration on 10/31. My application to township was submitted last week, for two PW2s. Any word on cost difference between PW2 and PW3? Is storage capacity...
teslamotorsclub.com
Cheers
Max Spaghetti
Member
Sorry to be a pedant, but Powerwall has always had a built-in inverter. How else does the DC in the battery get converted into AC to be used in your house?
What it didn't have until PW3 was built-in solar MPPT controllers.
What it didn't have until PW3 was built-in solar MPPT controllers.
Back to the 3 phase capability... The slide I snipped and posted here was talking about the roadmap. and there was no mention of 3 phase until this slide. Hopefully 3 phase support will be available by the end of the year, but only Tesla knows.
Pedants 1, Leconte zero.
In my blissful ignorance I guess I thought it output DC into the external inverter just like the solar panels do and it got "inverted" to AC there. I wouldn't have thought about the battery unit internals. But in practical terms it (PW3) does remove the need for a separate inverter costing some serious $$$$ in the case of upper end Fronius (for example), which is my takeaway. One follow up question though - for PW2 and others, how then does the phasing of the AC from the PW get "merged" with the AC-inverted power ex the solar panels? My understanding is that you have to ensure that the final output "energy" (power) is "in phase" or else the end result can be very weird sine waves of power? Does something introduce phase delays so that the two inverted power feeds are in sync? Thanks for your patience!
That only a 3 phase battery can absorb
I can see why. Nothing concrete out there to hang an electric bill on, especially for those with existing 3phase grid tied inverters.
I don't indulge in speculation. A cursory glance maybe...
Says who?
There has not been any official announcement
It's complicated IRL but basically the inverter uses phase locked loop circuitry which incorporates a phase detector and an oscillator.
Max Spaghetti
Member
Yeah, pretty much that.
Terminology upsets pedants like me because they actually confuse the layman of what’s actually going on.
The “industry” has sold us products using the terms “Inverter”, “Solar Inverter, “Hybrid Inverter”, and “Battery-ready Inverter”. In doing so, they’ve created a “Confusopoly”.
In a pure sense, an “inverter” is simply a device that converts DC to AC. (The reverse is a “rectifier” that converts AC to DC)
In a household solar power perspective, what’s sold as an “inverter” is a device that incorporates a solar MPPT tracking controller which feeds in to an inverter that takes the say 80-600V DC from the panels, inverts it to 230V AC, syncs the frequency, and applies electronically any other controls such as max export.
A device that’s sold as a “hybrid inverter” is similar but it’s designed to work with a battery. The difference is that the “inverter” in these devices is actually an “inverter/charger”. The inverter has additional circuitry and smarts to actually work in reverse - to charge a battery. In order to charge the battery, it works in reverse and then rectifies the AC to DC and charges the battery.
When you or it wants to discharge the battery to provide AC power, it’s just an inverter again.
Translating that to popular products:
A Fronius 5.0-1 is a device with a solar MPPT controller and an inverter. You can plug solar panels into it, but not a battery.
A Tesla PW2 Is a device with an inverter/charger that can connect to a battery (only the in-built battery). It does not have a solar MPPT charger built into it, so you cannot connect solar directly to it.
A Fronius Gen24 is a device that does everything a Fronius 5.0-1 could do plus it incorporates an inverter/charger instead of just an inverter. So it can connect directly to a battery. (But it will only work with compatible batteries eg BYD)
A Tesla PW3 is similar but it incorporates its own battery. It differs from PW2 in that in includes 6x MPPT solar inputs, thus removing the need for an extra device.
EDIT: an “inverter” doesn’t just change DC to AC, it changes the voltage in the process, to what is required. The “inverter/charger” also adjusts the voltage when it’s operating in reverse. To what is required to charge the battery. It’s all microprocessor controlled to what’s required.
Disclaimer: this is my understanding - please feel free to correct anything, I am not an expert
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Umm, That's an official Tesla slide from a Tesla live steam for Powerwall installers as part of the USA Powerwall 3 launch. The product manager for Tesla Powerwall was speaking.
In my former houseboating days, we used an invertor charger to charge shore power or the onboard generator power (240v) to 24 volts lead acid gel batteries, each 2 volts dc and physically massive. I ran 2 banks of 24 volts to get more amphours. The invertor than converted this to house power at 240v, or if there was a massive load or the batteroes were getting low it would ask the generator to start. These systems used industry wide were decades before powerwall. They were not packaged at all. The better invertor chargers had highly programmable parameters. These systems get hammered beyond belief.Yeah, pretty much that.
Terminology upsets pedants like me because they actually confuse the layman of what’s actually going on.
The “industry” has sold us products using the terms “Inverter”, “Solar Inverter, “Hybrid Inverter”, and “Battery-ready Inverter”. In doing so, they’ve created a “Confusopoly”.
In a pure sense, an “inverter” is simply a device that converts DC to AC. (The reverse is a “rectifier” that converts AC to DC)
In a household solar power perspective, what’s sold as an “inverter” is a device that incorporates a solar MPPT tracking controller which feeds in to an inverter that takes the say 80-600V DC from the panels, inverts it to 230V AC, syncs the frequency, and applies electronically any other controls such as max export.
A device that’s sold as a “hybrid inverter” is similar but it’s designed to work with a battery. The difference is that the “inverter” in these devices is actually an “inverter/charger”. The inverter has additional circuitry and smarts to actually work in reverse - to charge a battery. In order to charge the battery, it works in reverse and then rectifies the AC to DC and charges the battery.
When you or it wants to discharge the battery to provide AC power, it’s just an inverter again.
Translating that to popular products:
A Fronius 5.0-1 is a device with a solar MPPT controller and an inverter. You can plug solar panels into it, but not a battery.
A Tesla PW2 Is a device with an inverter/charger that can connect to a battery (only the in-built battery). It does not have a solar MPPT charger built into it, so you cannot connect solar directly to it.
A Fronius Gen24 is a device that does everything a Fronius 5.0-1 could do plus it incorporates an inverter/charger instead of just an inverter. So it can connect directly to a battery. (But it will only work with compatible batteries eg BYD)
A Tesla PW3 is similar but it incorporates its own battery. It differs from PW2 in that in includes 6x MPPT solar inputs, thus removing the need for an extra device.
EDIT: an “inverter” doesn’t just change DC to AC, it changes the voltage in the process, to what is required. The “inverter/charger” also adjusts the voltage when it’s operating in reverse. To what is required to charge the battery. It’s all microprocessor controlled to what’s required.
Disclaimer: this is my understanding - please feel free to correct anything, I am not an expert
Max Spaghetti
Member
I have a Victron Multiplus II (inverter/charger) in my Ford Ranger Camper with more than half a Tesla PW of DIY LFP bolted next to it. When the power goes out at home (frequently), I plug it in and supplement it with a Honda genie as required …
I don’t actually own a Tesla Powerwall, and I’m making a lot of comments on a Tesla Powerwall thread. I would like to own one someday, and I am technically minded. I hope that’s ok.
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An "official" slide is not an official announcement - especially when the public has no access to the slides. It is a leaked slide/s
Ok, it seems we have different understandings of what makes something an official announcement, especially with respect to a product roadmap. My view is that if a company presents a roadmap to people outside of the company, e.g. users, resellers, installers, etc. that it's an official announcement. If I understand your perspective, you view an official announcement only if it comes from a public relations mechanism and/or available on their website, thus it is available to all?
From my perspective, it doesn't really matter what we call it. My view is that I saw and heard enough to determine that it's on the roadmap and the product manager was quite positive aboout it. Your view may differ.
Its on the Tesla website in the US but not available in Australia to the retain customer which is me. If its not available for sale it does not exist as far as im concerned
I am certainly not in any way jumping with joy, given the propensity of Tesla to have very rubbery timelines, and given the rubberiness of the timeline in the slides.
As an interesting aside; US properties do get 240V but not in the same way we do in Australia. They use a "split phase" approach that results in 2x120V supply lines and a reference neutral. US residential 240V is possible for heavy loads, e.g., what they call a "Level 2" EV charger. Detailed reference: https://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
Nah, you'll just get a refurbished unit.Note the slide says “last time buy” for PW2 and PW2+ in Q1 this year. So that might mean when my PW2 hits the warranty replacement trigger next year, they’ll have to give me a PW3 since there’ll be no PW2s left in stock