Prices are slowly going up?

[Knightshade]

Right, but how many actually for $7500 from the IRS is the question. You are probably one of the few who came out with those $7500 or somewhere around that range. I would say most say maybe half of that or none due to tax liability.

You think HALF of people buying a $50,000-$70,000 car (the 2018 pricing on the Model 3) were making less than $66,000 a year?

Because that's what your income needed to be (per your own link) for the full credit.

Speaking of that!

The EV tax credit can save you thousands -- if you’re rich enough

Almost 80 percent of the credits have been claimed by people making at least $100k.

grist.org

...

You realize you just posted a link disproving your own claim, right?

You said "maybe half" had enough tax liability, then provided a link saying almost 80% made over 100k (which is almost $35,000 MORE than than needed for the full credit).

Your own link suggests only 13% got an unexpectedly reduced amount.

Which is... somewhat less than half.

Bottom line: the cost of your car has gone UP by $2,510

Except, it hasn't.

Because the same car today would cost me over $5000 more


If you wanna do mental masturbation over the "sticker" price knock yourself out.. but MY cost is my actual net cost

Which was lower in 2018 than it would be today. By thousands. For the same config.

 

[Jejunjm]

Net cost is all that matters! I work in an industry that charges $10 for a Tylenol. Do you think the consumer (patient) cares if the insurance company pays $10 or $0.01 - they only care about their bill

Which is why incentives/federal rebates really need to be thought about (in general they are just handouts to large companies!)

 

[T3SLAROD]

Speaking of that!
...

You realize you just posted a link disproving your own claim, right?

You said "maybe half" had enough tax liability, then provided a link saying almost 80% made over 100k (which is almost $35,000 MORE than than needed for the full credit).

Your own link suggests only 13% got an unexpectedly reduced amount.

Which is... somewhat less than half.





Except, it hasn't.

Because the same car today would cost me over $5000 more


If you wanna do mental masturbation over the "sticker" price knock yourself out.. but MY cost is my actual net cost

Which was lower in 2018 than it would be today. By thousands. For the same config.

Actually, I didn’t realize I left my initial reply before I researched the topic, and posted the link. But you are correct.

Me personally, I do not account for that $7500. For me it’s the price of the vehicle, anything else is extra.

 

[Knightshade]

Actually, I didn’t realize I left my initial reply before I researched the topic, and posted the link. But you are correct, it is significantly less than half, which means we really don’t need any incentives to begin with.

Tesla certainly does not- demand continues to exceeds supply.

GM needs them though for the reasons I mention above. Which is why they'll be coming. It's 100% a handout to GM at this point. (Everyone else, especially the only other US auto company, Ford, is still years away from burning through even the original 200k).

Tesla recognizes this and seems to figure why not creep the price up bit by bit ahead of the credit and move more $ into the profit column, which is a smart business move, though arguably a bit counter to Elons remarks that he really wants their cars to be more affordable.

That said- if we DO get a new 7500 or 10k credit, and Tesla does NOT jack up CT prices past what the pre-order prices were, that's gonna be a helluva deal.

 

[Kevy Baby]

If you wanna do mental masturbation over the "sticker" price knock yourself out.. but MY cost is my actual net cost

You're the only one doing the mental masturbation here my friend: the rest of us are discussing the PRICE of the car. The reason: it is the one constant.

If you want to bring in the rebate, then bring in ALL of the variables (I gave a couple of examples). Otherwise, you are just a politician trying to sell his pet project.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Tax credits benefit both the consumer and the manufacturer.

Due to credits more consumers will calculate that their net cost justifies purchase of an EV
Manufacturers see this increased demand and builds more EVs.

Without the incentive, few manufacturers would even consider producing money loosing EVs instead of very profitable ICE.

End benefit of incentives is more EVs on the road.

 

[Knightshade]

You're the only one doing the mental masturbation here my friend: the rest of us are discussing the PRICE of the car.

No, that's simply not true at all.

MANY folks are discussing what the car ACTUALLY COST THEM, not the "price on the sticker" which is meaningless.


In fact, the SPECIFIC post that prompted my reply did that.

I remember it. I thought that was the incentive I got for paid for being a beta tester . Besides. They dropped the price more than $7500 worth.

Clearly he's talking about what he paid WITH the tax credit here- he mentions it specifically and is claiming they dropped the price by MORE than that amount.

Which, for the LR AWD config I describe anyway- is not accurate.

It's not accurate for the P either... though it's closer at least... Instead of the P today being 5k more net like the LR AWD is, it's "only" 2-3k more today than in 2018 (depending when you bought in 2018)

 

[SSonnentag]

It's called COVID-19 inflation. The prices on just about everything are going up. Food prices are up around 20% over the past year.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Tesla certainly does not- demand continues to exceeds supply.

GM needs them though for the reasons I mention above. Which is why they'll be coming. It's 100% a handout to GM at this point. (Everyone else, especially the only other US auto company, Ford, is still years away from burning through even the original 200k).

Tesla recognizes this and seems to figure why not creep the price up bit by bit ahead of the credit and move more $ into the profit column, which is a smart business move, though arguably a bit counter to Elons remarks that he really wants their cars to be more affordable.

That said- if we DO get a new 7500 or 10k credit, and Tesla does NOT jack up CT prices past what the pre-order prices were, that's gonna be a helluva deal.

With a $7k extension I'd also expect Bolt sales to leap. Chevy cut the 2022 LT1 MSRP to $32k while also making DCFC and Convenience II standard. And, they claim they improved the seats again.

 

[CapeOne]

Tesla certainly does not- demand continues to exceeds supply.

Whether or not Tesla "needs" the tax credits is debatable as their profits still largely come from non-car sales related activities. Also, there have been a number of quarters where Tesla produced more cars than they sold so to say that demand exceeds supply is not necessarily accurate. Although the current situation is a bit unique in the new and used car market, there have been plenty of times when several months old Tesla new inventory cars were not uncommon.

It would also be nice to see Tesla not be so cheap and cost cutting when it comes to customer service, quality, etc. but that may continue with or without the benefit of tax credits. Tesla using some of the potential tax credit monies for those things would be great for its current and future customers.

 

[CapeOne]

With a $7k extension I'd also expect Bolt sales to leap. Chevy cut the 2022 LT1 MSRP to $32k while also making DCFC and Convenience II standard. And, they claim they improved the seats again.

Yup. A $7k federal tax credit could bring the starting price of a 2022 Bolt down to $25k before any discounts or GM rebates.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Yup. A $7k federal tax credit could bring the starting price of a 2022 Bolt down to $25k before any discounts or GM rebates.

Yeah, but then you would be stuck with a Bolt

 

[Kevy Baby]

MANY folks are discussing what the car ACTUALLY COST THEM, not the "price on the sticker" which is meaningless.

Okay, then please include the following factors in your discussion:

• Cost of vehicle adjusted for inflation
• Average Salary increases or decreases
• Impact of Income Tax rules changes
• All differences for all markets (US vs. Canada vs Europe vs. Asia, etc. - where else offered rebates?)
• Sales Tax (if your state has sales tax, you paid tax on the transaction amount, not your net amount)
• What about if one had invested in Tesla stock then and bought their car now. Their OOP "cost" is a heck of lot better than what you paid!
• (The list goes on, but you get the point)

 

[Knightshade]

Okay, then please include the following factors in your discussion:
[*]Cost of vehicle adjusted for inflation

$54,500 net vehicle cost in 2018 would be worth $57,488.63 per:

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024

Easily calculate how the buying power of the U.S. dollar has changed from 1913 to 2024. Get inflation rates and U.S. inflation news.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

But Tesla is actually charging $59.490 for that vehicle.

Which is... MORE EXPENSIVE TODAY than 2018.

Like I keep explaining to you.

Oh- I forgot... Destination charge is higher now... I was just going by vehicle cost. But let's include EVERYTHING since you really wish to.

That's ANOTHER $200 in 2021 compared to 2018 IIRC.

So inflation adjusted you're looking at $58,488.63 in 2021 dollars for that 2018 car including destination.

The 2021 car in 2021 dollars is...$60,690 including destination.

Huh.

The 2018 car is still cheaper

By over $2200.

[*]Average Salary increases or decreases

As, unlike inflation or tax credits for EVs, that's unrelated to HOW you compute the car cost that's irrelevant.

[*]Impact of Income Tax rules changes

Same- this has no impact on the cost of the vehicle apart from the EV tax credit existing or not.

[*]All differences for all markets (US vs. Canada vs Europe vs. Asia, etc. - where else offered rebates?)

Unless you bought in the US one year and another country in the other year this also makes no sense to include.

[*]Sales Tax (if your state has sales tax, you paid tax on the transaction amount, not your net amount)

Finally a legitimate comment!

That said, the "sticker" cost on which you pay the tax is still only about $2500 lower in 2021 for the same config... so your tax savings would be the sales tax on $2500.

This is gonna be 125-250 bucks in most states (and less in some.... for example here in NC it'd only be $75).

So... that still leaves your net cost around $2000 more in 2021 for the same config as I paid in 2018.

[*]What about if one had invested in Tesla stock then and bought their car now. Their OOP "cost" is a heck of lot better than what you paid!

...uh- what?

In EITHER year you'd be better off taking the 2% loan and investing the cash- so this too is pretty irrelevant.

I invested the cash and just took the loan. So I got the car over $2000 cheaper AND 3 years sooner.

Oh, and my 2018 gets ANOTHER $100 cheaper each year I enjoy my lifetime premium data that the 2021 owner needs to pay for.

Plus the $300 cheaper mine is since I didn't need to pay for homelink seperately

(I'll call the 2021 wireless charger cost a wash versus the included mats and 14-50 adapter my 2018 came with).

[*](The list goes on, but you get the point)

I really don't.

The guy I was replying to claimed the car was cheaper today than in 2018 net cost. Including counting the credits in 2018.

That is factually not correct as has been shown with pretty basic facts and math.


I'm pretty baffled on what you think you're arguing about at this point.

The car is more expensive today- net cost.

Even including inflation and sales tax cost differences.

Thousands more expensive today.

It was roughly the same before the 4 price bumps in 2021.

But it was never really cheaper even before those bumps, and sure isn't now.


Now- if the tax credit comes back and they don't sneak in several MORE significant price bumps before it does, that might change. But it hasn't yet.

 

[Kevy Baby]

TL; DR

The Tesla price is less now than then.

 

[Knightshade]

TL; DR

The Tesla price is less now than then.

Right.

Which is what I said originally back in post 68 that you kept arguing with

So I'm again baffled by what your argument even was.

 

[Lloyd]

Your $Dollar$ is slowly worth less. The cars are the same

 

[Kevy Baby]

The Tesla price is less now than then.

Right.

Which is what I said originally back in post 68 that you kept arguing with

So I'm again baffled by what your argument even was.

So then you are agreeing with what I've been arguing all along: that you paid $62,000 for your car (and then you go on about some other "net cost to you" total) and that the $59,490 price of the car today is less than the $62,000 price back when you bought your car. Thank you for confirming.

Post 68:

Well, they don't see LR RWD anymore so you can't compare "todays" price on a product they don't sell.

But my own LR AWD car?

I paid 62k in blue with FSD, minus $7500 tax credit= $54,500 in 2018.

Pricing same at Tesla.com today that car is... $59.490.

 

[iwannam3]

Tesla changes the supercharging price from time to time. they could raise to Blink price or more at anytime. No CCS adapters available but all EU cars have it as the plug in. Without that we will be stuck with tesla for high power DC charging.

 

[Knightshade]

So then you are agreeing with what I've been arguing all along: that you paid $62,000 for your car (and then you go on about some other "net cost to you" total) and that the $59,490 price of the car today is less than the $62,000 price back when you bought your car. Thank you for confirming.

Post 68:

Nope... sorry, read that backward I suppose.

The car in 2018 was absolutely cheaper in net cost to me than the same car today would be.

Thousands cheaper.

As shown to you, several times now, with actual specific math.

Even adjusting for inflation and tax differences. Again the summary-


My net cost (car plus destination) was $58,488.63 in 2021 dollars for that 2018 car.

The 2021 car in 2021 dollars is...$60,690 including destination.

Making the 2018 $2201.37 cheaper.


Tax was higher on the 2018 purchase, but only $75 more- while I got the now-$300 homelink for free... so that's another $225 cheaper for the 2018 over the 2021.

I called the fact I got mats and the 14-50 adapter, but the 2021 got a wireless phone charger, a wash.


So everything else as same-same as possible (tax, credits, destination, options, etc) you end up with $2446.37 cheaper net cost for the 2018 vehicle than the 2021 vehicle.

Plus another $100 saved every year for the premium connectivity that's free for life with mine, but not the 2021.


As a reminder, this was in direct reply to the guy who was claiming the 2021 was cheaper even COUNTING the 2018 tax credit- which is why I counted the tax credit.

That is factually not true

The 2018 is cheaper.

$2446.37 cheaper in my state.

Even in an "expensive" tax state it's still be about $2250 cheaper.